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Becoming Trauma-Informed
Welcome to Becoming Trauma Informed- The podcast where Dr. Lee and TLC bring you expert advice and strategies to understand what trauma is, how it affects our daily lives, and what we can do about it!
Dr. Lee is a DNP-prepared adult nurse practitioner a clinical trauma professional. She is an expert in helping people understand how past painful experiences affect their bodies & brains- and how to change their future for the better!
T. Lee Cordell, aka TLC, is Dr. Lee's co-host and partner (in business AND life!) He brings his research and historian experience to the podcast, helping us make connections and understand how history repeats itself.
Our podcast is explicit because we talk about lots of triggering and adult content (and we cuss on occasion!) so this is a content warning- listen with care & be gentle with yourselves.
Becoming Trauma-Informed
S4EP14: The Power in a Name: Tackling Identity and Self Perception with Erika Zeb
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Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode, let's dive in. Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode.
Speaker 1:You know what's so funny? I just realized. So I have a lot of past painful experiences around names and saying names wrong and, as someone whose name has played a big part in my life, that is the thing I am terrified to do is fuck up someone's name. Yeah, because I know how that feels. So it's so funny because I was sitting here. I'm like I have this amazing guest. We've been friends for a long time and name change happened not really recently, but somewhat recently, and I've always just seen it abbreviated Zeb, erica Zeb, and then I was like wait, how does she say this? Yeah, how do you say it? Zabitio, zabitio.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fun one, it's fun until you are constantly spelling it, yeah, and constantly correcting people. So when you were just saying that, like the fear of getting people's name wrong, like my married name. So the name change came from divorce, so my married name super easy, yeah, easy to spell, easy to say, I never had to spell it for anybody and I was like shit. Now I'm going to go back to Zabitio, which when people see it, they have no idea.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I get on a phone call and I have to spell it and I do it without even thinking. I'm like Zia's is your EBS and boy and I like go through the whole thing, but I've been like unsure. Do I want to go with the abbreviated, which is funny? Zab was like my dad's high school like nickname. Everybody called him and I'm like, for ease, I just am going to do that and also it's left me in a really weird place Like wait, who?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's my? This is so not the topic of the podcast and actually what this this tracks. We're just going to go, we're going to go off course immediately and I love it, so I'm really good.
Speaker 1:So I was at a networking meeting at a local restaurant and I was walking back from the bathroom and I looked up and I saw this guy. And you know, when you see somebody that is in a place that it doesn't make sense for them to be, you're like, well, that can't be them, because why would they be here? And then I looked over and I saw the woman next to him and I and I was like she's familiar to and I was like, holy shit, that's my high school principal. Oh, I grew up Two, two hours away from here. He moved away, we moved away and we like locked eyes and I was like Wyoming and I was like Mr Baker. We ended up having this gorgeous conversation. I was telling them all about what we did. It was. It was really cool to like get to tell him I got a doctorate because you know he's a principal, like he really cares about education and my sister got one too, and like we were just having this amazing conversation.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, my friend who's like waiting for me to come back from the bathroom is like what's going on? But I'm sharing the story because he knew me as Chelsea and so when I went to introduce myself to the table where he was sitting. I said my name's Lee, and I kind of saw the like lack of recognition and I said, and when I was in high school I went by my my, what is now my middle name, chelsea, and he was like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, this makes so much sense and but I haven't had to tell that story in a while or like explain why that happened. And I did. I felt the nerves and the like I have to justify why my name is now different to people who knew me some other way. Yeah, and I know so many people go through that women in particular go through that from a divorce perspective of like it's an identity shift, it's one more piece of your identity shift right, like you're already doing all this internal identity shifting of like, well, I was married, no, I'm not.
Speaker 1:I was partnered with this person. I was X, y and Z with this person. Now I'm not. Who am I? And then also externally, oh shit, like I've got to change that too. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:I didn't think it was going to be a thing for me, like you actually have to like navigate. I'm like no, I'm just going to change my name. And actually at first I was like I'm not going to change my name, it's just easier, because the name change process is kind of a pain in the ass.
Speaker 1:It is a pain in that People don't understand Like you got to put stuff, you got to pay for ads and papers and go in front of a judge and like do all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:There's so, and I already did it to change my name. I got married and I never thought twice right, Like this is what you do you get married and you change your name. And then I went to help in my daughter's kindergarten class she's now in second grade and I remember going in and the teacher was like oh, and today we have Mrs Beale with us. And in my mind I was like no, the fuck, you don't, she's dead Right.
Speaker 1:Like Taylor Swift, like she's dead, she's dead.
Speaker 2:She's gone, she is gone. And it was until that moment. I was like, yeah, I'm just going to keep my name for ease, I'm lazy, I'm going to go through the process. And she said that and I was like, no fucking way, that's not me. And then I also felt like I didn't even resonate with my maiden name. I'm like who, what is this? And I was like maybe I'll just make up a whole new name. And then nothing was coming to me. I'm like why am I putting pressure on myself? I just need to get divorced, get like that name gone. I don't need that name, right, and if I want to change my name down the road, I can. It's such a huge process and I'm still doing it. I'm still changing my name almost a year into it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and you know I always like to bring this up when people say they have a hard time with my kid changing their name my oldest or they have a hard time with pronouns and I'm like look, when women get married, you have no problem shifting to their new identity.
Speaker 1:And you do not tell me that you have a problem shifting how you see someone in their identity in other places. It's just conditioning when is it okay and where is it normal to do that and where is it not normal or socially acceptable to do that. That's all it is.
Speaker 2:That's all it is. Even look at when women get married and you have like, okay, miss, misses, ms, like all these different ways to identify whether or not a woman is attached to a man, and nobody thinks twice about it.
Speaker 1:It's totally normal, yeah, but ask someone to pay attention to pronouns and it's like well, and like this has nothing to do with whether or not you think it's morally right or wrong. Like you can honor and accept people's identities without agreeing with them. Yeah, and you can let your kid wear a cape and call himself Spider-Man for a week, even knowing like, yeah, you're not Spider-Man, or like I don't think you're Spider-Man, it doesn't hurt for him to or them to try that on, and so, anyway, like I just love this complete. This is how you and I talk, though, yes, you and I are like, oh, we're, like we're going to be superficial for about half a second and then we're just going to go right into it. So, welcome to Erika and my friendship. Yeah, this is how it goes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what we normally do at the beginning of an episode is I talk about where we met or why I wanted the guests to come on the podcast, because I think that I was actually having this conversation with someone a week or two ago. I said look, when you pitch to be on my podcast here spoiler alert, if anyone wants to be on it when you pitch to be on my podcast, tell me how you're going to serve my audience. I don't care about your accolades, I don't care about your audience size, I don't care about any of that. How is my audience going to walk away from your episode having learned something, shifted something, gained something from it? What value are you bringing? So it's interesting because about 90% of the pitches I get to be on the podcast are all about the person and not about the value they're going to bring to the audience.
Speaker 1:So there's your tip. If you want to be on, that's a good one. I like it. And the reason why it was a no-brainer to have you on is because you are doing some work and like leading legit, leading some counter-cultural, radical, revolutionary and also very simple. You just gave me chills with that because, yeah, right, like you are doing this massively transformative work around, I think what is one of the most simplest things in the world, which is, hey, can you accept yourself please? I don't even need you to love yourself. Can you just accept yourself please? I will just take that photo. So how did you get into this? Like, why do you do this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, why do I do what I do? Cause I can't not do it either.
Speaker 1:Right, I've had a few times. I've tried. I know You're like I'm gonna give it up and your purpose is like huh, that's so funny Come back here.
Speaker 2:It's hilarious. You literally can't there's no way, okay. For a decade I was a full-time hairstylist and makeup artist, so I like worked in the trenches right Of beauty industry and the pressure that women specifically face to look at be a certain way, and when I was in that business, like I always felt like I didn't fit in in a way, like I loved my clients. I love these conversations. They felt super safe with me, which is now I'm like that's like, if you want to compliment me, tell me. You feel safe with me and I feel like, oh, my God.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, but these women, they'd sit in my chair and they'd tell me their whole fucking life story. There were times where they would tell me things and I was like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to be the keeper of that information, like I'm not ready for that. But I always felt like I didn't fit in in this way of like, oh, what's going to make you look younger? How can we make your face look thinner? And I always had this little voice in my head like, oh, I don't know, this just doesn't, even though I loved it, even though it's all I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:And then I have rheumatoid arthritis. So the pain from that was a big reason. It was the reason why I left that career behind. And then I found myself pregnant with my first child and I was like, all right, I guess I'm going to do the stay at home mom thing, right? Like I left this career behind. I was devastated. I didn't have the tools or even the awareness to know how to even navigate something like that. Essentially, I was retiring at 29 because of my health, and that was a whole mind fuck. I was super independent. I fought hard to not go to college because everybody wanted me to be a lawyer and I was like I want to do hair. And it was like that's only for people who don't know what they want to do, right, and I was like I'm going to do it anyways. So baby Mia 18 was still making decisions, even though I didn't recognize it, making decisions for myself and not what people expected.
Speaker 2:But then when I got married and then got pregnant and it was three months after I left my career, so I was like I guess I'm just going to do the stay at home mom thing. I hated it. I hated it a whole lot. I was not cut out for it. I got really depressed, major like postpartum depression, anxiety, all of it. Cause now here I was again.
Speaker 2:I like had this major life shift with my career and what I had built into being a stay at home mom and I was like, wow, this is not for me. On top of the fact that, when I was pregnant, what happens? You gain weight, right, and I spent my whole life fighting that, like most of us, hated my body, been on diets for fucking, ever Starved for myself, disordered eating, all of it. And now here I am pregnant and I'm like what in the actual fuck is happening. I don't like it. My body is growing. I can't stand it. I'm home, I have nothing to talk about. I felt like I had nothing to offer the world at all. I was in a really unhealthy marriage and felt so alone.
Speaker 2:But I, like you know, I pulled myself through like the really really dark moments when my oldest was an infant. Like you know, I would have thoughts. You know, if we're like out for a drive or something, I'd be like huh, oh well, if we like drive off the side of the road, yeah, like that was a regular thought of mine because I hated my new life, I hated motherhood. So I was like, if I can't have my old life back, who might as well not have anything right? And that's scary, that's a scary place to be in, yeah. And then, when my daughter's about eight months old, I had that aha moment where I was like what am I teaching her?
Speaker 1:What am I?
Speaker 2:showing her. I was miserable, I was depressed. At the time I thought it was because of my body, right, that conditioning was all still there and I'm like, oh my God, I don't love myself because I'm eating a donut, bullshit, right. But at the time I'm like, what am I teaching her? What am I showing her? And I knew enough to know that I could say all fucking day long to this little baby girl be confident, you're amazing, you're beautiful. But if I wasn't actively showing her that, like, what that looked like didn't fucking matter what I said. She's gonna look at me. And I remember having the thought where I'm, like someday she's gonna talk and like she's gonna look at me, like why is it okay for you to do that, but you want me to do this?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like fuck. So that was my big like I gotta do this for her. And I didn't know what that looked like and I didn't know what that meant. And I didn't have a business at this time. I was just stay at home, mom, like just trying to figure out what the fuck to do next, while being miserable, and I just started treating myself with love. I didn't like wait till I felt love for myself. I was just like all right, well, I wanna show her. So that means I have to take that action.
Speaker 2:And then the more I treated myself with love. I was like, oh, look at that, I actually don't hate myself. Ooh, yeah right, yeah Right. And doing things like it was a hard stop for me too. At that moment she was like eight months old. I decided that she would never hear me say a bad thing about myself or my body ever, never. And one thing about me is when I decide I go like all the way in. So I could actually say seven years later she has never heard me say a negative thing about my body and what that did. That like trained me too right, like rewired everything in my brain, and naturally I was like I have to help other people, like this is too good, accepting myself and, like you even said, not even loving yourself, because that sets us up for like some unrealistic. Oh, I'm gonna feel love for myself, particularly my body, which then gets wrapped up in this idea that like we've been conditioned to believe that self love is actually loving how you look.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, right, like Botox is sold to us as a way to love yourself, and really just a way to love the way you look. But what happens when we strip back all the conditioning about how we look and what it means to accept ourselves? What happens then, and what can change in your fucking life when you actually just radically accept yourself? All of you? I'm messy as fuck, I am emotional, I am all the things right that we're like told we shouldn't be and we have to be perfect. It's like no, what happens when we accept ourselves? And then that led to like massive amounts of self trust and that, right, there is. What fucking changes everything? Not even self love, just self trust. Right, and naturally, yeah, I had to just help the people. Like I gotta like help other people with this.
Speaker 1:The squirrels went in six directions.
Speaker 1:Yeah sorry, no, are you kidding me? Don't you dare apologize for any of that amazingness. You know, the thing that kind of just clicked for me as you were talking is I was sitting here going because I don't think a lot of people know that you were a huge, huge, probably the biggest part of like my own self love body, except in Sturney. And For me, like starting to read books, like oh God, the fuck it diet and the body is not an apology and all of these things, it really radically shifted things for me. And as you were talking, I was actually reflecting. I'm like when's the last time I said something negative about my body? And I was like I don't think I have recently. And also, when people make comments about my body, they don't shift my mood, if that makes sense. So like the other day I was well, I'll go there. I was like getting in the shower and my husband came up and you know he likes what he sees all the time.
Speaker 1:And and he's like oh my gosh, you're looking. He's like I want to make a comment, but like I don't want to. I know that you know you're kind of staying away from the judgment piece. He's like but your skin is so clear, like you don't have any breakouts anywhere, and he's like it's so smooth. And I and I went yeah, it's because I've been taking showers more and drinking more water. Yeah, but I wasn't like oh, my husband likes my skin. Or like, oh, somebody found my skin pretty and that shifts how I feel about myself. I felt excited because what he was pointing out was a result of me nourishing myself, taking action.
Speaker 1:Taking care of myself, like things I was doing that had nothing to do with what my body looked like, and so it was a proud moment of like. I didn't do this to shift how I looked. I did this to shift how I felt, and not from a external validation perspective, but from an internal perspective. And so I've noticed, since this move, I've been doing my makeup more and like putting on earrings and things like that. But I'm not doing it because it's like, oh, I'm doing this so someone else will love the way I look. It's like I love wearing big hoop earrings and I love blue mascara because it makes my eyes really pop. And then when I'm looking at myself on zoom, I'm like, oh, I like my eyes today. It's not a, it's not Gosh, I'm like trying to find the words for it. And do you know?
Speaker 2:what I'm trying to say, I do, it's coming from the inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so it's really hard to put into words. It's something I struggled with, like telling people like how do you even put this into words? Because it's not like I like that you brought up, like the makeup and the earrings. Some people think that it's like oh, you're telling me I'm wrong for wearing makeup. It's like no, no, no, no. What we're not available to do anymore is come from this place of feeling like we need to fix ourselves in order to be seen. Yeah, you're wearing hoop earrings because you're like I feel like a fucking badass and these hoop earrings I love them.
Speaker 2:Yes, they're fine, they're fun, right. And when we remove all that conditioning and actually get to the place where, like, we're making decisions that just internally feel really good for us, it's like, oh shit, how did I spend so much time before? Right, we're not going to make ourselves wrong for it but it feels so liberating and freeing to just know that you are one million percent worthy and lovable, exactly as you are and, yes, we can do things that, like activate us. For some people, wearing makeup activates them. For me, personally, the physical feeling of makeup on my face is such a distraction and it's so uncomfortable to me.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, thank you for saying that word right there, because you know you talk a lot about confidence and I think I've shared my personal perspective on confidence, but the way I view confidence is it is when you are not distracted by yourself. Yep, and so for you, you saying like when it's on, it's a distraction, okay, well then, it's pulling me away from being myself and feeling like I can just be a, not monitor or get distracted by how I look or how things feel. And it's so fascinating because that's why, when I do my makeup, I do. There's four things I do. I'm like it's a swipe of blush, a line of eyeliner, a little bit of brow filler and mascara. That's it.
Speaker 1:Maybe a pop of color on my lips if I'm feeling spicy, right, but like I don't do any of the other stuff because it does, you're right, it doesn't feel good, it distracts me, and it's something I noticed when I started doing photo shoots. When I had professional makeup artists doing my makeup, I would look at them and go, that's not how you're going to see me. If you meet me on the street, though, yeah yeah, you might not even be able to recognize me, because I never wear foundation, I never wear bra, like I don't do any of that stuff, and so it actually shifted the way that I started doing my photo shoots. I was like look, I need bare makeup. I don't care if you can see wrinkles or lines or imperfections, guess what. You're going to see them when you meet me in person too, right.
Speaker 2:And taking those actions and doing that. It's one thing to think about. Oh, I would love to do a photo shoot with no makeup or minimal makeup, and no. I can actually do it Like that is the worst Right. So for me, I don't wear any makeup ever. So that includes photo shoots, and I remember the first branding photo shoot I did after I had stopped wearing makeup, because it was another just aha moment where I was rushing to put makeup on in my kitchen with my daughter.
Speaker 2:She was like one and in my mind I was like, oh shit, am I teaching her that she has to wear makeup? But really it was a moment for me to ask myself why am I doing this? Yeah, why am I rushing to put makeup on right now to go to the grocery store? And I was like, oh, because I don't want other people to think I let myself go, hmm, that statement makes me stole Right.
Speaker 1:It burns my toast, erica. Yes, you let yourself go. What is?
Speaker 2:what yes?
Speaker 1:I didn't let myself go. I let all of your ridiculous standards that you were trying to get me to uphold go. So no, I didn't yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't let myself go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I let myself go free. Right, I let myself go free. I released all of the standards and the shoulds, mm hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember in that moment having that thought oh, it's because I don't want people to think I let myself go. And then I asked myself the question do I think I've let myself go? And I was like, oh no. At that moment in time, I loved myself more than I can ever remember loving myself. So that was literally the last time I ever wore makeup, because and that's the point of doing this work is getting to that place where you are genuinely making decisions fully from your own desires and your own, not from a what are people going to think? I don't want them to think I was a tired mom. I was like fuck, I am, though I am, and I got bags under my eyes, and makeup is uncomfortable. So the first photo shoot I did, I remember I started to put some on and then I was like, oh, wait a minute, why am I doing this? Why am I putting the makeup? You don't do that.
Speaker 1:I don't like it.
Speaker 2:I don't like the way it feels and I told the photographer, who was a friend of mine at the time. I was like, please do not edit these pictures. You can edit lighting, but do not Photoshop my cellulite. Do not hide my. None of none of it is, none of that is allowed.
Speaker 2:And you might think that it takes confidence to do that right, Like, oh my God, you have to be really confident to like do a photo shoot with no makeup and also say don't Photoshop and like, don't retouch. But it's the act of doing that that led me to greater confidence. So I did that photo shoot. I was four months postpartum with my second, which was the reason why I was so adamant on doing the photo shoot, because, after my experience with my first pregnancy and hating the weight gain in my body and being to all the things, when I got pregnant with my second, I was like I'm going to do things differently and and I knew I was out here leading, I'm out here telling people to love and accept themselves and then I got pregnant and I was like, oh shit shit, do I really?
Speaker 1:The universe is like oh, you want to do that here's, here you go.
Speaker 2:Now you have an opportunity. You're going to gain Opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what are you?
Speaker 2:going to do with it and I was like I can't, I'll be a hypocrite Like if I'm out here telling people this. So what am I? Because at that time too, I had lost some weight before I got pregnant. The second time because I dove into like disordered eating, thinking it was for self love, and that's a whole other story. But I had another conversation with myself where I'm like, all right, cool, I'm pregnant, I'm going to gain weight. My mind is like, oh, you're not going to gain as much weight as last time because you're, you're healthier now. And I was like, no, we're going to quiet that little voice down too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I had to ask myself do you truly love and accept yourself and your body right now, or is it easier because your body is smaller than it was? And I was like, oh cute, oh cute, I love myself because my body's smaller. So that means I really have to do the work. Doing a photo shoot like that, four months postpartum, in my underwear, no makeup, that was not a. I feel so in love with my body and myself that I want to take these pictures. It was. I deserve to be seen and honored and celebrated in anybody that I have and I'm going to do this right now because it scares the fuck out of me and I also know it's going to be everything that I need. And then some like people still talk about those pictures. That was my son's about to be.
Speaker 1:Are those the ones where you're like in the bed? Yes, and you're crying? Yeah, because I remember you had had a really tough time, like right beforehand. That's another. That's another one.
Speaker 2:That was the photo shoot I did moments after declaring for sure that my divorce was happening and shit was about to get real ugly. But yeah, that's another one, right, I'm just just raw and real. And it takes acceptance of yourself to allow yourself to be seen like that, yeah, and it takes action, like you have to take action and lead yourself, like I know you mentioned, like leadership and leading yourself through things. And I don't know if I, if I didn't have the experience of my divorce, I wouldn't lead myself the way that I do now in such a really powerful way and again, self trust and safety.
Speaker 1:But you know it's, it's just one more place that we're kind of plugged into, the matrix and where you got to, you know, red pill yourself a little bit and go OK, if I step back and look at my thoughts and my behavior and my, my judgments, my decisions around all of this, and this has always been so helpful for me. Now that I, you know, becoming a mom, it's like would I want my child to do these things? And that is such a great lens, like if I watched a woman that I loved or a girl that I loved, one of my kids, doing this, like when my heart hurt. And what you're actually talking about is a lot of reparenting work, because you know my mom is incredible. I love her to the moon and back.
Speaker 1:And you know there was so much body image stuff growing up and me gaining weight has always was a thing. It felt really uncomfortable for a lot of my family members and part of my weight gain was after I was sexually assaulted just before I turned 18 and I was like yeah, no, like I need layers, like I mean that's the only word I can think of I need layers. I need to be able to put distance between my inner self and anyone else outside of me. And so both from a okay, I'm quote unquote less socially attractive and from a more psychological perspective of like what happened was heavy and I needed more weight to be able to hold it and to carry it, but it is, it's a process of deconstruction. Like you have to really start looking at everything you're saying to yourself, everything you're doing.
Speaker 1:And you know I didn't realize how obsessively I counted calories before reading that the Flockhead's I book. I was like wait, I am doing this like 17 times a day. Yeah, without even realizing it. Yeah, again the other day I started to count up calories, just from curiosity, because now I just eat when I'm hungry and I don't eat when I'm not. And I asked myself the question like have you held a vegetable in the last two days? Maybe we should do that. Like not, but not from a judgmental perspective, just from like a there's probably some minerals and nutrients missing right now. Nutrients are important, right, but it's from in my nourished place, not a have I been good or have I been bad place?
Speaker 2:The moral, what I don't even know the word. I'm looking for this good and bad, though. When we look at food, it's bad when we look at ourselves for being good or bad for like. That stays with us. That like will influence everything you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's judgment, it's the opposite of acceptance, like, and I think that that feels really. That felt really scary for me. If I stop judging myself and stop restricting myself and just accept myself and approve everything I do, I'm going to go off the rails. Yep, I'm going to eat 10,000 calories a day. I'm going to gain a hundred pounds. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And all of those fears were. I had to look underneath of it and I'm like why do you again? That's self trust. Why do you not trust yourself to take care of yourself? And the answer was no one taught you how.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Not only did, not only did no one teach you how, you were actively taught how not to Right, especially diet culture and food in particular, in our bodies, like we are taught to outsource our body wisdom, we are taught that we can't be trusted to know what to eat, when to eat it, how much.
Speaker 2:Like none of that Right. And it starts so like my kids are little seven and almost four and, yeah, so much of this has been re-parenting while I parent, like I'm seeing what do they need, what did I need? But you watch this happen. You see babies, right and you, they need to be fed and you want them to be fed, and when they're chubby and fat, they're cute and oh my gosh. And then all of a sudden, as they get into toddler hood and they're starting to eat you know, solid foods and all of that more regularly. Now we shift into, like this hyper vigilance with what they're eating, when they're eating, how much they're eating, yeah, whereas when they're babies, you feed them when they're hungry, and that is literally taking our own intuitive way of eating and being and taking it away from us from the moment we're starting to eat food.
Speaker 1:And I want to speak to one of the top pushbacks or arguments I hear to. That is well, if I let them just eat whatever they want, or I let myself eat everything I want. All I want to eat is junk, and all I want to do is this. And again, if we are teaching our children and ourselves and learning about what nourishes me, right and it's not just what nourishes me physically Food can nourish you emotionally, it can nourish you spiritually. Hi, communion, hello, right, like it can nourish you in so many different ways.
Speaker 1:This is something we've been working on with our kids, because they have a lot of different influences and you know they're 13 and 11 now and I say, look, y'all, you can choose your foods and you're getting to the point where you really want to start paying attention to how does my body feel after I eat this, and I cannot answer that for you. And if you're noticing that you're eating something and then 30 minutes later you're hungry again and 30 minutes later you're hungry after that, it's just a question of OK, do I want to keep eating this food that's only keeping me sustained for 30 minutes, or do I want to find something else that will keep me sustained for longer. Notice, there's no judgment in that, None, it's just oh, you know what? Yeah, I keep having the spike in the crash. And the spike in the crash, and maybe that's why I go to them and I'm like, hey, are you noticing you're feeling kind of jittery or whatever?
Speaker 1:I'm like maybe we throw in some protein, maybe we throw in some fat, and it's again. It's not coming from this place of you've had too many carbs, which is what I used to do. Yeah, now it's OK. We've been eating carbs for the last four things we've eaten. How's your body feeling? Oh, you feel like trash. Cool, let's throw in something else. Yeah, no judgment, just like curiosity. You're not wrong, you just yeah, you didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 2:Nothing.
Speaker 1:And also, on the flip side of this, we make people wrong for desiring these quote unquote bad foods.
Speaker 1:And we do not have time for me to get into it, but this is something that I looked at when I was a professor in the College of Nursing, when I would teach about diabetes and heart disease.
Speaker 1:The levels of diabetes and heart disease in our country actually massively increased right around the end of the 1960s early 1970s, and it had nothing to do with how much we were eating or any of that. What it had to do with is we actually started taking fat out of foods. We demonized fat and we demonized the filling parts of the nourishing parts of food and then, in order to well, food tastes like shit if you take out all the fat. So we added in sugar and sugar substitutes, which are cancer causing and hormone dysregulating and all of the things, and so it's like again, I'm not demonizing it, we have zebra cakes downstairs in our cabinet right now. I'm not judging any of that. I'm just saying it's really also hard to nourish yourself and to stay quote unquote good when the systems that exist in our country are actively pushing you to eat foods that are not necessarily the most nourishing things.
Speaker 2:It's like we're taught that the problem is fatness Right.
Speaker 1:Yes, even when you eat the fat, like the fat is the bad. I'm like no, that's like. I'm like what do you think we did for tens of thousands of years? Like you think that when an animal came in, we were like oh, only keep the breast of the chicken, don't eat the thighs, don't eat the skin, don't do any of that. We ate the whole damn thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like it's so ingrained that fatness is bad and it's literally not. And like some bodies have always existed in the harm. So, like when it comes to I'm obviously not a doctor when it comes to heart disease, diabetes, all these things it's so commonly thought of or known like, well, it is totally weight related and it's like, well, no, not really actually. And what likely is putting strain on people's hearts too, is weight cycling, which is the gaining and losing of weight.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and biologically.
Speaker 2:Biologically, if we're starving ourselves, our brain's gonna be like, oh, there is danger. And then diet culture says oh no, it's your willpower and it's your self control. And it's all pointing the finger at you right, You're wrong. It's all about shame and blame, when really it's your body doing what it's meant to do and protect you. So then it starts shutting down like whole organ functions. Your digestive system might get whacked, you're reproductive and you're holding onto fat and you think you quote, unquote, plateaued, and it's your body just preparing for the next time. It's in a famine state. Yeah yeah, we're still told that fatness is bad.
Speaker 1:Right, it's wild.
Speaker 1:This is a place that I got really passionate and actually I did my doctoral project around hyperglycemia in bone marrow transplant patients and creating a evidence-based plan for our patients, and when I suggested that we allow some patients blood sugars to ride higher because of specific things that were necessary for that patient, you would have thought I just said to inject bleach into people's veins, like they were like we can't, and I'm like listen, you're missing the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember the SNAT cabinet at work for their patients and it's sprite, oatmeal, toast, all of these processed, simple sugar, carb-filled foods, which, again, not wrong. Yeah, and our hospital was actually sponsored by a very large soda company, so we had those machines that was free for the patients, and so what was so fascinating was is we were like making these patients feel bad for coming in and not being able to control their blood sugars, and then we were like, hey, we know you're nauseated, here's some foods that spike your blood sugar. And so I just the whole thing started to feel so off and I think, bringing this back to the leadership piece, for so many of us leaders, I think that we have been taught to accept systems and conditioning instead of ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah, like trust the system, don't trust yourself, uh-huh. And as leaders, it's really our job to be like okay, no.
Speaker 2:No, I'm going to question the fuck out of the system. Yeah, I'm going to trust myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just see evidence of that in your life in so many places, like in your marriage and in your business and in your relationship with yourself and in your parenting and all of these places and spaces, and like I guess my question for you would just be I know the answer to this and I want the audience to hear it. Okay, is it hard and is it worth it to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one million percent. Is it hard to like? Trust Is it hard to like?
Speaker 1:to really lean on that self-trust instead of the systemic trust. Yeah, and is it worth it? And how, or why? Okay, it's super fucking hard.
Speaker 2:It's super hard, thank you. Yeah, there's no way around it. I can maybe make it look easy cause I just do it, but it's super fucking hard and one million percent worth it, like a million percent worth it. And for me, what makes the hard easier is support and safety and finding your people. So a lot of this like unlearning and moving away from the systems and really starting to question and really coming back to life. But what is what do I know? Like, how can I trust myself? I don't have to follow.
Speaker 2:This Is having support and like people who are also on that similar cause.
Speaker 2:Otherwise you're gonna feel crazy, you're gonna feel wrong, you're gonna feel like you're doing, of course, you're gonna feel like you're doing something wrong because you've been taught it was wrong. So for me, it's always been like leaning into you know support and other people and having people honestly tell me like when I was going through my divorce and I mean it was so high conflict and so intense that like yeah, I trusted myself and also I needed to be reminded often Like yeah, girl, you can trust yourself, of course, and I'm like all right, whoo, you're right, I can, because who is it hard? And to like build a life and a business and live a life that the average person doesn't understand. I do a lot of asking myself like okay, am I afraid to do X, y and Z because I'm genuinely like scared of it or there's like some danger, or am I afraid of somebody else's perception of it? And it's almost always oh, I'm afraid of somebody else's perception of it, so shit, guess I gotta do it anyways.
Speaker 1:It's so annoying. It's so annoying. Thank you for speaking on that, cause I think it is really hard, because once you start to trust yourself and you start hearing that voice being like mm-mm-mm-mm-mm or like, yeah, do it anyway, even though so and so is really not gonna like this, it is really annoying. I don't wanna listen to her, you know. And the part you said is it worth it? You know, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely one million percent. Like I can even say I've been.
Speaker 2:My divorce started September of 2020, so three years and when I think of, like, how much has changed my life in three years. Oh, yeah, what did I? How did I do this, how did I do this? But you know, I'm living in my apartment, my post-divorce apartment that I made happen, and I'm like I laugh sometimes cause I'm like, oh, on paper, right, it looks like I wouldn't be happy with my life based on like what quote unquote they told us we needed Like two bedroom apartment, 10 year old car, divorced single mom, late 30s, not thin by society standards, all of these things.
Speaker 2:And I'm over here like, oh my God, I fucking love my life. I fucking love my two bedroom apartment and my 10 year old car and all of these things that I thought I needed or should need or want actually weren't it for me. Yeah, and now that I'm like it's so beyond worth it, even though it's really hard and continues to be hard. But like life, I think for me and like a lot of work I do with clients, is that we're not doing toxic positivity, we're not doing this like, oh yes, life is wonderful and I made all these changes and everything is great. It's like no that's not realistic.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be hard. There's gonna be fucking shit shows throughout your life. How do you move through it? How do you lead yourself through it? How do you not let it totally take you down and take you into a place where you're no longer like in integrity and like really in tune with yourself and what you want?
Speaker 1:I love talking to you because you lead me to so much self reflection and you like help things click for me. And I'm sure that some of our audience is having the same experience Because, as you were talking about your life looking the way that you want it to, even though other people maybe are like, really you know the house we just moved into.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people might see it as like, oh, you know Jefferson's moving on up, like, oh, it's this nicer house, it's bigger, it's all these things I don't give it. That's not why we did it. Yeah, right, this house is not in the neighborhood that we had planned to be in, that we had been in for 11 years and there were so many people who were like you're gonna leave this neighborhood, Right, and we had the opportunity to move on up into the more bougie side of the neighborhood we were in and there were so many self trust moments where there were so many moments where I had almost talked myself into something. And then I was. I heard myself and I'm like this is not a full bodied yes for you and honestly, I didn't want this house to be a full bodied yes because it was in the wrong neighborhood. Yeah, I was like no, no, this is not how I identify, right, like the street signs in this neighborhood are blue because the colors are blue and white like not green. We've lived in the green place for so long and just to kind of tie that back to the beginning of there was so much of my identity that I hadn't examined and asked myself like is this mine or is this something that just kind of snuck in and was woven in and like it looks like it's me and it's not.
Speaker 1:And, thinking of your name, it's easier to spell, it's easier to say and also it's still not right. Yeah, so thank you for that drop in, because the second we moved into this house, like my soul feels different in this house. Yeah, I can't even explain it. I feel like I can feel it. Yes, and I've had so many people be like you are so, like you're radiant, like you're more excited anymore I'm like I am sleeping like a baby in this house. I don't wake up in the middle of the night. I don't like our kids are sleeping so much better. It's so interesting. So at any rate, I just appreciate you sharing that and this is a perfect segue to kind of wrap up around sharing what you do, because you and I have had the conversation before of how it's kind of hard to talk about what you do, and I love that. We just kind of it gets me and it's not Right. I'm thinking of your name, it's easier to spell, it's easier to say and also it's still not right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I really appreciate that. So, like thank you for that drop in, because the second we moved into this house, like my soul feels different in this house. Yeah, I can't even explain it.
Speaker 2:I feel like.
Speaker 1:I can feel it. Yes, and I've had so many people be like you are so like, you're radiant, like you're more excited anymore. I'm like, yeah, I am sleeping like a baby in this house. I don't wake up in the middle of the night. I don't like our kids are sleeping so much better. It's so interesting. So, at any rate, I just appreciate you sharing that, because and this is a perfect segue to kind of wrap up around sharing what you do because I don't you and I have had the conversation before of how it's kind of hard to talk about what you do and I love that we just kind of evidenced it a little bit because really you talk to the people and you ask questions and you are yourself and then like there's just some natural processing that happens for the other person on the other side of that.
Speaker 2:Like you're giving me chills. Thank you, because I just had this conversation this morning with somebody. I went and met with an old friend to use her space to do like some in-person things. Yeah, because I'm like I'm trying to. I said people walk away from conversations with me, even casual ones. I can meet somebody at the gas station and they walk away from a conversation with me and they're like oh, I got a lot to think about and I'm like it's just what happens in conversation with me and why it is so hard for me to like put into words what actually I do and what happens. But it comes from me being so vulnerable and I create this bubble of safety like just by existing the way that I do. So thank you for reflecting that, because I do.
Speaker 2:I love to see the light bulb moments and the people Right.
Speaker 1:You just made me think like big time with that and I really appreciate people who do that, because I have been told that that's something that I do too and it's so nice to get it back because I'm like I want some light bulb moments. Come on, yes, yes, yeah. So thank you for that, and we're going to make sure that your information in the show notes so that people can connect with you. I know you have groups that you run. You have one-on-one offerings. Like people like you are very you have a lot of ways that people can kind of play in your space.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, lots of ways to play in my space and I know you follow me on Facebook and I'll probably set off a light bulb with a little post and put it up there. I brag, but, yeah, my favorite way though. I love one-on-one coaching. I love being in someone's back pocket specifically I've talked to you about that. I just want to be like just fucking riffs and stuff with me and let's have conversation and look at what happens when you have conversation, and that is my favorite to give that space to people too, that really super safe space to just like be in whatever they are in at that moment.
Speaker 1:I think we underestimate going back to that whole surrounding yourself with people who are on the same journey you're on and who are looking at life in a way that you are desiring to look at life. I don't think we really just talk about the importance of that, and that's something that I've been leaning into this last year of who am I surrounding myself with and also who am I intentionally paying to be in spaces with them because of, not because of what they do, but because of who they are and how they be in the world, and that has shifted a lot for me, and so that's something that I think a lot of people get from your space, too is just you know you're, you're getting to be around somebody who is being how you want to be, and that rubs off.
Speaker 2:It does, oh my, totally rubs off. It's like you can feel the freedom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the last thing I want to say to you, because I was just thinking about how I feel in this house, I feel such a difference in your energy in this space as a single mom, like I remember a couple of times sending you some DMs and being like don't you dare stop, like don't you dare throw in the towel around this, because I, I will come find you.
Speaker 2:I remember one specifically, and I was like girl, I was just the other day in a really dark place when you had sent me a message like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like, please do not stop, because I, I see again you put you, put yourself out there to be seen, and I was like I see you and you deserve to be the way you want to be. And like, just again, having people like that in your back pocket and then also having people like that as your friends, that you know you're going to have each other, like that is so, it's so crucial.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest shifts that, like, pandemic COVID brought for me socially.
Speaker 2:Yes, we weren't around people, but it was my, my opportunity to step back and be like who am I making myself available for? And I decided in that time to, from now on, only make myself available for people I feel safe being my full self with clients, partners, friends, all of it. And it changes everything, cause I'm like, oh wow, I was doing that cute little masking thing and being like who everybody wants me to be, and I had my therapist reflect it to me what was a while ago now. But she's like you're actually like doing that. You are actively surrounding yourself with people you feel safe being yourself with. Then, the more evidence and the more time we spend being ourselves in a way that feels like we can let all the armor and masks off, then you're like I want more of that in my life, like I don't want to armor up, I don't want to mask up, I want more of that. And then you get intentional about your whole circle of people only being yeah, and you know what we're going to have to do a second.
Speaker 2:I was like we're going to have to know.
Speaker 1:I'm saying we're going to have to do a second episode on that because I think that that's the. The next piece of it is, as you start to accept yourself and you start to not be distracted by yourself, you're going to start seeing things in your external environment that you're like wait a second. And so I'm just going to tease the audience with that. We'll come back at some point and have that conversation because, again, from a leadership perspective, that is hard. That is hard. I think we can talk about relationships where you go. This is not working for the version of myself that I want to call forth. Yeah, and what the heck do you do about that? Because you had that experience and ended up divorced. I had that experience with TLC and we're on the tail end of working through all of that and staying together, and I think for both of us it was gnarly, as as, yeah, it was gnarly.
Speaker 1:So I think we get to come back in a couple months and have that conversation, because I love it. It's an important one. So, okay, everyone, everybody, listening to this, I'm bossing you around go follow Erica and go work with her, because she's awesome, and thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next week. Bye, y'all. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitation to head to our show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned, or you can just head straight over to InstituteforTraumacom and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. Come to Be Well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.