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Becoming Trauma-Informed
Welcome to Becoming Trauma Informed- The podcast where Dr. Lee and TLC bring you expert advice and strategies to understand what trauma is, how it affects our daily lives, and what we can do about it!
Dr. Lee is a DNP-prepared adult nurse practitioner a clinical trauma professional. She is an expert in helping people understand how past painful experiences affect their bodies & brains- and how to change their future for the better!
T. Lee Cordell, aka TLC, is Dr. Lee's co-host and partner (in business AND life!) He brings his research and historian experience to the podcast, helping us make connections and understand how history repeats itself.
Our podcast is explicit because we talk about lots of triggering and adult content (and we cuss on occasion!) so this is a content warning- listen with care & be gentle with yourselves.
Becoming Trauma-Informed
S4EP15: Harnessing Emotional Power for Personal Growth with Katie Macks
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Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode. Let's dive in.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, welcome to this week's episode. I'm really excited because I have had the profound privilege to have several humans that mean a lot to me on the podcast in the last few weeks and people who are clients, really good friends, people who I've hired, people who are all of the above, and today's guest is somebody that I've been connected with for a hot minute and have really had the honor of getting to work with as a client. Actually, we met in a hotel room. That's a fun story, had a day-long slumber party.
Speaker 1:Right, and we had a day-long slumber party that just healed my soul. And so, without further ado, I have Katie Max here with me the Katie Max here with me, and it's so funny because I'm going to ask you to tell everyone about you in a minute and y'all. My first experience with Katie was doing something very vulnerable for me, because I had never really been like the girly girl having a bunch of friends, slumber parties, sleepover when I was a kid, and so I was there for a retreat in the Bay Area and I said, hey, you know, we were trying to figure out what we're going to go do, like a spa or whatever, and it was like torrentially downpouring and we're in this hotel. And finally we were like, okay, like what if we just have a slumber party? What if we order pizza and have fun?
Speaker 1:And Katie like showed up because she's friends of people who were there at the retreat, and she walked in and I was like it was a Jack and Karen moment, almost from uh, I don't know well in grace, if you ever watched that where it was like did we just become like really good friends very quickly, and interestingly enough, though, we didn't like really connect that much for probably several months after and then we had, yeah, then we had a chance to like really connect again and I I'm never letting you go. So you know, katie, I would love for you to tell everybody you know that question of like who, what you do, I think for you and I is like that's not the question. It's like who are you, how, how do you be, what do you want people to know about you? Before we talk about all the things?
Speaker 2:Beautiful. I love that, and I think I'm going to talk about who I be more than what I do, and then I'll get to what I do. So you know, I am a human that cares so profoundly about humanity, about love, about decency and kindness and equity and support for all humans, all sentient beings, so that's something that I am driven by. I love culture, I love travel, I love to learn, I love to grow, I love to expand my consciousness, and I have been like that since I was born.
Speaker 2:So, it was a natural evolution for me to get into the field of personal development and there was a lot of trauma that happened early on in my life that I didn't understand, like how, how are these things possible? And so that sent me on a journey of discovering what it is that we're up to in this lifetime and what my calling has been. So I'm so grateful and I'm I'm a coach, I'm a mentor, I'm an evolutionist. I don't find one thing and just stay with it, like every learning is a growth for me. So I just step into new arenas and new possibilities all the time because I value learning and expanding and growing, and I know that that's what serves me and therefore serves the humans that I get to support and work with.
Speaker 1:Hmm, okay, y'all, do you see why I love her?
Speaker 2:And I just want to say one thing about our slumber party, because I just got to jump in, about you and I and I love you so much and it truly was that moment of like tuning into you, tuning into your energy and going, oh, this is my person and I'm highly intuitive, highly intuitive and I chose you and that's something I do when I meet people is I choose like, oh yeah, you're the human that I want to get next to and feel and jump in and play and learn and all those things, and I just love that. We met there and really fell in love and then there was some space and then there was room for us to reengage. And now I'm in your business community trauma sensitive business community and I'm so grateful and I love being in your field, I love being in your genius and I love learning from you.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm over here like, okay, practice receiving. Yeah, here I go. Katie is such a great activator for me personally to you. You help me receive, and that is something that at you know you and I are both like we're big givers. We're like, oh, how can I help people, how can I support people Like, what do you need?
Speaker 1:And that's been a journey for me over like the last probably year or two, of how do I really deepen into receptiveness and like de armor and the reason I was so excited to have you on the podcast. There's lots of reasons, but the main one when we talked about this episode in particular was we were talking about being an activating human and like the journey of that, because it is. It is a whole last journey, and also you speak to this concept that I know a lot of people haven't heard and you speak about it in such a profound way and it's also inherently trauma, sensitive and it's inherently like founded in psychological safety and it's related to being an activated human, which is this idea of interactivism, and so I would love to hear you talk on that and have our listeners be able to just experience how you explain this, because it's really beautiful.
Speaker 2:Okay, beautiful. I think I'll start with interactivism and then I would please segue into activating people. So that really goes back to when I was young and you know there was a lot of harm done when I was young, to me and like I was trying to figure out and navigate how to be in the world after being so violated, and when I was 11 years old. I'm just going to share this story because it was so impactful. I was at the dinner table with my family, we were all quiet, we were watching the news or some television show, and this amazing woman comes on the television and she declares her bid for the presidency of the United States. So this was 1971.
Speaker 2:Her name is Shirley Chisholm, or was Shirley Chisholm? She was the first black senator to be or, excuse me, congresswoman to be elected in New York. She was amazing and she had a vision for the world that was gorgeous and steeped in love. So here's this little black woman during a time where, like it was inconceivable that she would be running for an office the highest office in the land and she had a list and she just like, she just wasn't that kind of picture that we had been fed of. Oh, this is the leader that you know we want. Well, she was a leader I wanted. I felt like I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was in first grade, so like I felt like I had an inside lisp, if that makes sense right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just was like, oh my God, here is this human who is so courageous and talking about a vision that I am so aligned with, that was steeped in love, that was steeped in equity, that was very directly communicating about the breakdowns of our country and things that we needed to work on to get better. And so it was that honesty, it was that directness, it was that courage that lit me up and I became an activist. Right, I was like, oh, so the next day I took Muni bus, I grew up in San Francisco, down to our headquarters and I started working for her At 11? Uh-huh, at 11. Amazing, and it was an incredible experience and it really sent me on my way and I became an activist that put a stake in the ground for social justice, environmental justice. I've been arrested like 17 times.
Speaker 2:I did a lot of civil disobedience and all of my fight was external, like I just had no tolerance for injustice, but I could not bring that back to myself. It was all externalized, like if someone else was hurt, I was gonna be a stand for them. I had no connection to my own hurt, what I needed, but I was young and so I was so brilliant to be able to direct that passion and energy towards what I really believe we all need, which is justice, right. So now we're at present time and I really had to come to terms with oh my God, I've left myself out of any justice conversation. I'll fight for you, but I don't know how to stand for myself, and that was a really heavy awakening for me to go. Oh, I'm really out of integrity in what I'm standing for, not like wrong, just I didn't know better. Right.
Speaker 2:And so now I feel like the work that I'm offering to the world is really the work that's needed. Instead of taking it to the streets with our outrage and our pain and our frustration, it's bringing it home to ourselves, because I really feel like the macro of what's happening in the world all the division, all the infighting. That's what we live with inside ourselves. You know, we've got a part of ourselves that knows how magnificent we are, and then we've got another part of ourselves that just trashes ourselves and it's like we are so divided within who we be. And that's the work, that's the trauma work, that is the work to do, the interactivism, so that we bring justice to ourself, kindness to ourself, everything that we desire to ourselves like patience, loving, kindness, curiosity, compassion, empathy things that we give away so freely, we get to bring to ourselves.
Speaker 1:And that has been a journey that has challenged me and delighted me, and scared me and all the things I just had like multiple waves of chills as you were speaking because and also I hope somebody saw my face on this Like I'm gonna go hide for a second. You know, but we do this A lot of humans, especially caring professionals like those of us who go out into the world and fight for things or fight against things. There's so often an inner fight that is not being addressed and you know, you actually inspired a TikTok that I did probably like a couple of weeks ago, where I said you know, it's so fascinating to me when people say that like that they never harm someone, because that's not true. If you really believed that you never like that you didn't wanna harm people, if you like were really against that, you would not speak to yourself.
Speaker 1:The way that you do 100% and your journey through this work over the last several months has influenced my journey in this work over the last several months, and a local reverend said something the other day that really made me think of you and he said you know what does it look like when we love from the center of who we are? And I thought you know, in order to love from the center of who you really are, you gotta know where the center of who you really are is and like what it is and how it is, and so many of us can't access that because it's covered up with the term that I have been using, which is it's a harsh term and it's a true term. It's like it's covered up with so much internal violence and shame.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, which is part of why we're seeing so much violence out there, right? I really believe that everything that we're seeing is everything that is going on within us, yeah, right, and yet, you know, we are not taught how to connect with ourselves. We're told it's selfish, we're told it's wrong, like we have to care for everybody else, and if you're gonna talk about gender roles, it's like you know, I look at women who just pour into everybody else and are completely drained, which is just filled with so much self-harm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually reading this book right now and it's an old one I don't wanna say old, but probably like 10, 15 years called I don't wanna talk about it by Terrence Real. Oh, I agree with Terrence Real. Oh gosh, he has a framework about, like our inner child and our adapted child and our you know, grown, regulated self that we use a lot in the Institute's work.
Speaker 1:And this book is about depression in men and what's so fascinating is the way he explains depression. There's a huge trauma lens to it and so much of how depression appears in men is actually through violent manners. Right, it's. Either they're either practicing violence externally or they're numbing and dissociating and hurting themselves. And what's so fascinating is that in our society it is more acceptable for women to internalize their pain and like and be kind, like, give everyone else the compassion they wish they had. That's more acceptable. And for men, traditionally in our society, it's more acceptable for them to pour their energy into their work and into being achieving things and being the top and being, you know, the best, and they're still practicing internal violence.
Speaker 2:So right, the next thing we all are, and that's why this work is so important, that's why your Institute is so important, it's why the work I'm doing is so important, because we are bringing people home and it's so funny.
Speaker 2:You know, I shared something with you, I think, a week ago, and there was someone that I was talking to about working with, and their comment was you know, if I have the discretionary funds and we talked about that right, like we put ourselves last, like if there is discretionary funds, then I can actually invest in myself. And I venture to say that needs to be the very first thing, because that's what impacts the rest of your life. Interactivism is putting a stake in the ground and saying I get to be free, I get to work through whatever it is, it's in my way to be the human I wanna be, so that I can make the impact that I came here to make, whether it's within my family, community, work, wherever it is that you know, I think we're all driven to be who we know we really are, but then we just get in our way continually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so shame-based and it's also shame-inducing like it's a very self-perpetuating process. My brain, the squirrels in my brain, went six different directions, the two things that just really popped up from a vision perspective. One is Carl Jung and all of his work, and until you really get to know who you are and understand everything that is underneath the layers that you've put in place, to kind of distance yourself from some of the things that you've been conditioned aren't right that the shameful pieces and parts, you're not going to be able to really feel the depths of happiness and joy and fulfillment and passion that most of us want to. That's where the depression a lot of times comes from and that is a scary process and it's a very scary process.
Speaker 1:It's one that I've gone through and there's a really popular book series right now, like A Court of Mist and Fury and Rose and Thorns and Sarah Maas, I think, is how you say her name. There's a spoiler alert. There's a scene in one of her books where in order for the main character to really move on in her journey, she has to look in a mirror that shows you the truth of who you are. And no one to this point has survived looking in that mirror.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And when she comes through that she's like I saw the depths of my darkness and it terrified me more than I ever believed it could and I accepted that part of myself and knowing that it's there and also not making myself wrong for having it be there. Like I know I have capacity for hurting people. I know I have capacity for anger and resentment and jealousy and hatred and spite and judgment and I'm not going to make myself wrong for that, because I'm a human.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, and we have been taught to have so much shame about that and which you know. For me, the way I dealt with it on a trauma level was I just fond over people, right, yeah, like so that I could belong and you know, like give away all my power and like empower everybody else around me, right, and then be like oh, oh, no, that didn't work. It didn't work, right. But I mean, we're all conditioned to have a response, right, Like a threat response to that and which goes to activating. So maybe this is a good segue to activating.
Speaker 2:So since I've been really little, I have activated everybody and I thought it was like the worst quality ever. I still struggle with it from time to time. It really depends on if I'm resourced or not. If I'm not resourced, I go down and I want to just let people know, like, if I don't take the time to really take care of myself, tune into myself, give myself undivided attention, make myself right, like what you were talking about, and just really approving of who I am, all parts of myself, if I don't take the time to do that and I start to get depleted, I don't have the resourcefulness to deal with what's going on out there as an activator, right. So, and I just you know, I feel like in the coaching world. Okay, now I'm going to go somewhere else before.
Speaker 2:I get to activating In the coaching world. There's this whole thing like, oh, you just let it go, and here we are.
Speaker 2:I think, there is so much BS in the coaching world, right, it's like awareness is momentary, right, and then things come at us, and so it's a constant commitment to our well-being. Right, which means taking the time that we need to get regulated, to tune into ourselves. Right, and we, if we don't do that, that causes self-harm. It does for me, because I get mean to myself and I, you know, I turn on myself. That's what I was conditioned to do, and I think most of us have been.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we get conditioned to be mean to ourselves when we feel specific feelings. Instead of understanding that feelings are so much less of a choice than we think they are right, we conflate feelings with emotions.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Emotions get to be a choice, right, how I decide that I'm going to interpret the meaning of something that has happened, that gets to be a choice. However, the way in which my nervous system initially feels when something happens, that's not my choice. That is something that happens to me, and so we make ourselves really wrong for having feelings and being like oh gosh, I just got really angry and it's like well, okay, what does that mean? What does it look like when you get angry? Well, actually, I felt like a burning in my chest and I felt like my fists clench up and I felt my toes get all tight in my shoes. Okay, Are you just angry? Is there something else there present with the anger? And they're like actually I was. Oh, I felt ashamed, I felt embarrassed, I felt confused, I felt overwhelmed, I felt sad and like, all of a sudden, there's so much more there that you have access to.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I was just raised where certain feelings were not safe to be felt as a child and I think so, and not intentionally, you know my parents weren't like, oh hey, you're not allowed to feel anger. It wasn't that. It was also like, looking back generationally, there were very specific feelings that weren't that literally weren't safe for people to feel, and when they did express those feelings or say that those were emotions they were having, they were hurt or harmed. So it makes sense, it was a protective thing. And if we want to move from that I'm just surviving, right, and I'm being mean to myself to help myself survive we want to move from there to no, I actually want to thrive.
Speaker 1:If someone else has another way around this, please write in, let me know. Like I'm so happy to be wrong, right, because like I do not enjoy feeling my feelings most of the time and that is the only way I have found to actually get to a place where I get to the center of myself and I understand what's really going on, and like what needs aren't being met and what past stuff is being brought into the present, and like that's the only way I get to a space of like, oh okay, that's what's going on.
Speaker 2:Which is so helpful. If we don't take that time, I will speak, I armor up. I think we armor up. We get really tough or whatever trauma response we go to, whether it's fight, fight, fawn or freeze like we go to one of those places. That's our safety zone and I armor up. I armor up if I don't take the time and then it's more work to de-armer myself than it is to just sit with the discomfort of what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, part of the reason I'm in your community is because it's a safe place for me to come with my wholeness. Yeah Right, it's a safe place for me to come when I'm armored up. It's a safe place for me to come when I'm in my joy. It is. We need to be in community and have people around us that can see us, witness us, love us, mentor us. We are not meant to do any of this alone, and yet we live in a culture that's like figure it out, read a self-help book, and we don't get through to the core of ourselves with reading or listening to possible answers, without the support of how to integrate it into our life. Yeah, now, it's really different when we read about it or think about it than when it drops into our body and we can act on it. And I really believe that we need people in our lives to support us acting on it, because our knee-jerk reaction is to just go back to what we know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. You know you have taught me so much around coaching and holding space for people because you know, like you're such a powerful human and for me feeling safe enough to be like Katie, you're in a shit ton of resistance right now and that's cool. And also like I'm your friend and you're being mean to yourself and like I am not friends with people who are mean. So like are you done? And it's coming from this very loving place.
Speaker 1:And what's so fascinating is is like when I stopped tolerating how mean I was being to myself, it became so much easier for me to with love and kindness and compassion when I saw the people who were around me being mean to themselves to be able to be like hey, what you doing. Like it's totally cool that you're having whatever feelings you're having under this. And like what if we just feel them instead of you being mean to yourself about it? Like can I just, can we just do that together? And it is one of the hardest things I've ever done and it's also one of the simplest things I've ever done and, honestly, part of me is just like man, what if we taught this to five year olds? Like what if we taught attunement to five year olds, and then everybody knew how to do this. What would that look like? And it's amazing.
Speaker 2:But I want to bring this back because I think this is really important, because it's something that's not talked about in the coaching community, which is everyone goes there. I want to normalize the things that are not normalized Right. Like I think people look to coaches or mentors or teachers as like someone who's experienced it and through it, and it's a constant evolution of change and growth, and so I just want to normalize that, like, we all go through shit, we all turn on ourselves. You know, even with the tools and even with you know all the things. We know when certain things hit us, if we don't take the time to actually pause, then it just starts to accumulate and and and it's just not even conscious, right. So all of a sudden we're like, oh shit, how did I get here?
Speaker 2:And I just I think it's so important that we look to people that can guide us, because they've walked the path versus they have gotten to this outcome of, oh, I don't have to go there anymore. Because if you are going to continue to grow, and if you are going to continue to evolve and take new ground and take new risks, you are going to meet deeper versions of yourself and it's okay. It is okay that you hit the walls, it's okay that you turn on yourself, as long as you've set up a support system in your life where you can have people like you, me, who can say I see you, and this is what's going on, and reflect back what, what we're doing, and that is the gift. That is what's real. It's not that you get through and you don't have to deal with it anymore. That's what people are running from. That's a trauma response. Let me just get through it so I don't have to like, never get there again. Well, that's not the thing. That's what we're desiring, but it's not how it actually works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like do I wish that I could. Just people could come in and I'd be like, oh, you have trauma, okay, it's cleared. Okay, good, you're good for the rest of your life. Have a fabulous time. I think I said this to you yesterday.
Speaker 1:I just went through another layer of this receiving thing to the point that, like I did a hypnosis session with Laura Mazzata, who's been on the podcast a few episodes ago, and, like my, I felt my chest a little crack open. I mean, my chest became the grand canyon. It was the weirdest Like I had a vision of it. And at first I was like, oh my gosh, it's so empty. And I was like, no, it's so expansive, there's so much space to receive here now. And my chest hurt the rest of the day. And then, but today, like in an interaction with with TLC, my husband, I noticed that I was having a little bit of resistance, there's a little bit of feeling coming up, and I was able to say to him, hey, I'm, I'm struggling to receive right now. And even in saying that, he was like what do you need? And I was like no, I just needed to acknowledge that there's this old pattern here and I'm feeling it, I'm feeling them kind of rub up against one another and I'm going to consciously choose to soften and surrender into the canyon.
Speaker 1:And that's not fun work. It's not fun for me to be super vulnerable and be like, hey, I know that I should just be like whoa, this is so fun. And also I'm like it's scary to say, hey, I'm having feelings. Here, especially as I think women and men experience it a little bit differently, and this is generalization. But for women, we're oftentimes told our emotions are too much, we're hysterical, we're crazy, we're this. And for men, a lot of times it's like you can't even own that, you have emotions so that there's so much stunting and so much internal violence that gets created over literally feeling. Which is why I think your work and my work is so activating for people because we move. You know, when you think about that word activating, it's you're moving people into action, right, we move people into feeling, which is like the most, like the most dangerous thing ever to do.
Speaker 2:It really is. It really is and I also think it's so magical because we walk it every day. And so even what you just shared about having the awareness to say, oh, I'm having a hard time receiving, and it might not be fun, but it is such a luscious recognition of your awareness about who you are and the work that you continue to do and step into that. It might not be fun because it's really vulnerable, but it is so fulfilling. Like there is a sense of freedom and peace maybe not fun, but freedom and peace, which is actually much deeper where you go. Wow, I can really rely on myself, I'm so proud of myself, I am so honest and willing to be vulnerable. It's what I value. Like we get to like pause into that and celebrate, and I think that is key. Like those are the moments that we get to celebrate versus bypass.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's hugely. That is huge, especially after this just happened. Right, you had this awareness and you had this just huge, huge area of stepping into. That's new and pretty soon it won't be new. That's the other thing. Like, as you continue to step in, it's like oh, I'm much more at home here. This is awesome, and that's what I was saying earlier. Like we step into newness and then we can expand and then there's more newness for us to step into, so the process doesn't stop if you are hungry for more in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of people might hear that and go well, I'm not hungry, or like I don't. Even I remember being hungry. I don't, I don't know. I don't feel that anymore and I want to witness that because I'm a say a thing you know.
Speaker 1:As a nurse practitioner, I used to teach pharmacology and I used to teach about depression. I had patients who had depression. I prescribed anti-depressants. I'm on an anti-depressant and have been on one off and on for the better part of like 25 years, and my husband and I have actually been having a conversation of what it would look like for me to wean off of that and just like see what would happen. And the reason behind that is so much of.
Speaker 1:When I look back at the patients I saw who were depressed even thinking of that word depression, right, like there is a flattening of affect. Well, why do the feelings just get to be too much and so we turn them all off because nobody taught us how to feel them? And what's so fascinating for me personally? I don't know that I've ever shared this anywhere, but I had what they referred to as anxiety induced depression. I was so worried all the time that it felt crappy to live like that right. I couldn't find any of the pleasure or the joy, because it was like there was a fire alarm being pulled in my brain constantly.
Speaker 1:Well, that was trauma, that was really significant. Assaults and molestation as a child, that was bullying, that was a lot of things that happened. And so we've done this thing where we've almost pathologized the lack of feeling or the predominance of anxiety and worry. And yet when we look at, when we trace that back to what's causing that, well, we're not teaching anybody how to feel their feelings. So how could we properly feel our feelings if that's not modeled or if that's not shown and if I can't bring that out externally to the world and say, hey, I'm having a tough time, hey, I'm really pissed right now, hey, I'm really sad, I'm really worried, I'm really this. If that's going to get shut down or pathologized or whatever, we've got a huge problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it is a huge problem and that's what's happening, Right, and, as an activist, look at the repercussions of our inability to deal with things is like the macro of the inability to deal with things, right. It's so interesting. It is one of the same, because we're the humans that are running the show, whether it's our own life, whether it's a leadership position which I think we're all leaders, by the way but I think that having the courage to lead in our own lives is everything. Having the courage to feel, grow, expand, contract, do all the things it takes to have a better experience that is leadership.
Speaker 2:But I'm also talking about the leadership in the world and if we really look at what's going on, we are in such breakdown and that is also what's reflecting in the people that I'm talking with. People are in such breakdown and yet we are addicted to this image that we put it all out there, that we have it all together, when in fact, that's not what's really going on. And it's that incongruity that is also traumatizing, right. It's like because we think, okay, good, I'm safe, I put out that everything's fine, but what I'm really feeling inside is the opposite and I don't know how to deal with it or feel it, or even look at it, and so we numb ourselves with, we do things that are harmful to ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And when I have somebody that comes through our figurative doors and they're like, yeah, I'm doing these behaviors that are participating in these behaviors that don't really feel aligned, I can tell I'm spending too much time on my phone, I'm shopping, I'm spending money, I'm sex, drugs, alcohol, all the things, and they're like I'd really like to stop that. And it's like, okay, and why are you doing those things? Right, that is where, honestly, I guess I'm just being a little activating to myself and to others in this conversation, because I don't typically go here and it's a place that I'm starting to go more, because I'm like, you know, we get to say what we need to say.
Speaker 1:It's where I think our medical model has just utterly failed us, because it has looked at our bodies or our brains or our feelings, all of those things.
Speaker 1:When they say, hey, there's something going on, we view that as problematic. Okay, well, how do I fix it Exactly? And it's like what if, instead of looking at it as a problem, we looked at it as something's out of balance, like there's a message here? Our goal isn't to cover the message up or make the message go away without hearing the message. The goal is to go okay, what specific message is coming through? Why is that message here and not from this very like siloed system way of oh well, you know, you're having chest pain, so it must be a heart thing. Okay, could it also be something else? Right, and it's really starting to look at things holistically. And this is the message that, when I even touch on it a lot of times, people go like whoa right, there are so many things, there are so many physical ailments that people have brought to our space that when they feel their feelings, they go away.
Speaker 2:Hallelujah, and I just had that experience with you. I know it's like that, oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it's amazing. And yet, like we are reactive to the things, I had something happen. This was many, many years ago. I had traveled the world for three years. I thought I was going to be gone for six months and I realized, oh, I gave everything up, I got rid of my home, I did everything. I was in my I think mid 30s and I was gone, like I said, for three years.
Speaker 2:I came home and it was a really hard reentry because everyone in my life had kind of moved on the Katie box filled with somebody else. I had this huge community and I came home to not much of a community it was, and people didn't understand what I did. Like you know, people say, oh, did you have a good vacation? It was like no, it was actually more of a rite of passage. Like there was just such a disconnect.
Speaker 2:And so I was at my doctors and he said how are you doing? I just was like, oh God, I just started sobbing and he said would you like some antidepressants? And I looked at him and I said, oh, and I completely stopped crying and I go are my feelings making you uncomfortable? And I didn't take antidepressants at that time. I have no issue with antidepressants, but I was just like no, I need to feel this. Now, the interesting thing as time passed, I got more and more suppressed, and so that goes to kind of the little tea traumas of yeah, there's something wrong and, oh, you know, like that was too much. And so, like you know, we're all affected by the judgment that the world has on having our feelings. And yet here we are, helping people accept their feelings, move through their feelings in a way that is has no harm, and that is a beautiful thing. So I just want to acknowledge that, and that is inner activism. It's really having the courage to look at yourself. And we are not our feelings, they're just feelings that come up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interestingly enough, the first class I taught Pharmacology like the first time I taught on my own, I had a student in there and I wish I remembered his name so I could reach out to him and be like you kind of broke my brain in. Like at the time I was mad about it and now I'm so grateful. But we were in that that lecture and he said I have a question. He's like don't you feel like the world kind of just sets us all up to be depressed though? Like isn't it more pathologic for someone to be happy right now? And everyone in the class was like well, way to bring down the mood, dude, right. But and I, that just kept bothering me. I kept thinking, ok, well, I don't want to look at the world that way. And also, is he right, like is the way that we've set things up make it really hard to be happy? And the answer is yeah, because having done this work for you know, a long time I did personal development work for a really long time but getting down into the semantics and the embodiment in the feeling of the feelings and looking at all that dark stuff and seeing shame and internal violence, like doing that work over the last three years. I now experience so much more joy, so much more excitement. I'm able to again the receiving piece is the latest piece, but able to receive so much more be so much more compassionate, kind, caring.
Speaker 1:And when I look around at most other people I'm like wow, most people do not feel the way I feel right now and I never thought I could feel like this. I didn't think this was possible. So a lot of people I think would go, ok, well, run, like, like that's a tall, like that's a tall order to take on. And it really comes back to again what that person said to me of like, if you love from the center of who you are and you know who you are, it does make it so much easier to go out and speak and act and be from that place.
Speaker 1:And the amount of times that I've had people now, just in the last year, say like you're different and if, like, you feel different, the amount of times I've had people say like your energy is, it's different than what I'm used to, it's a big driver to like go, oh, my gosh, ok, so if people can feel this and people can see it and people can get a taste of it and go, oh, I want that too. And we and I can help people do that and I can create community for them and I can help them feel like they belong while they figure out how to feel their feelings like, oh my gosh, we could actually like this could shift some shit. And I think you are having right the very same experience of like I'm willing to be activating, I'm willing for people to get to know what they're feeling. I'm willing for people to get pissed at me. I'm willing to go through any of that If I can check in with myself and say I am acting from love, from the center of who I am.
Speaker 2:Oh, I am just like preach sister. That is the core of it and that's why I need community, because it's really easy to be in the world pissed off and, you know resentful and you know pissed about all the external stuff. You know starting it. I remember being in an office where we would all bitch and moan about shit. We never talked about what was good, right. So here we are in the world, feeling good about ourselves, being lit up, you know, honoring what's important to us and it is activating for people.
Speaker 2:I think it is a much harder being in the world in a joyful place, with hope and excitement and presence, feeling your feelings and, you know, just feeling the delight of our growth. It's kind of like what you were talking about, about owning. This is new, this whole receiving thing and being able to celebrate that. Right, that is massive compared to I'm shutting down and you know, screw you, I can't deal with this right now. Totally different, but like it is. You know it is something for our nervous systems to be able to accept. Our joy, right, like. I have witnessed clients like feel so good and then it's too good. Right, I got to go back to fixing something or I got to go back to like a parts of myself that I don't like and work on that and focus on that, because feeling good is way too uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:I love that you said this, because we just sold our house. The vision we have for the Institute in 2024, like quarter four in 2024 is just like knocking my socks off, like I'm so stinking excited, like so much is good, like really good and joyful, and I'm so appreciative in our life right now and my brain like did not know what to do with this, because there's always been, there's always been some one thing wrong, whether it was the marriage or the finances, or the job or my health. There's always one thing. And I mean this has been something in all of the mastermind spaces I've been in in the last five years. I can still remember sitting on a couch and a coach saying this to me five years ago Like it just seems like you always have to have one thing wrong, and this is the first time in my life that everything's good.
Speaker 1:And so this morning I was messaging Sarah you know, sarah, our operations director, and I was like is the price of our program too high? Like should I bring it down? And did it. And she's like, why? Where did this come from? And I was like, oh, you know what? I don't think I have anything to worry about. And so my brain's just like coming up with stupid shit. And she was like okay. And I was like I'm done, just just leave it alone. She's like great. But to be able to have that realization of like you're feeling uncomfortable because holding that joy and that compassion and that kindness, like there's not a lot of people I can look to in the world and go, hey, how do I do that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'm loving that you're talking about it because it is. I just want to reflect to you how inspiring it is like, how thrilling it is, because I feel like this is what we work towards, and so I just want to pause for a second and say thank you, Thank you for sharing that. I am so excited for you and it also gives me deeper incentive to just say it's all working right, it's all possible. This is why I do the work that I do for myself and others right, Like to get to these places and to claim our joy, to own our joy, to share it, to let people know like that. This is occurring because we usually hear about the stuff that isn't working or the stuff that we're working out or you know, and so I love hearing about the things that are working and where you're headed. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you so much, and you know it's so funny, as I heard my brain go well, just make sure you say that, like you know you're not going to probably stay here. And yet I was like, oh, we're not doing. Oh, that was cute. Okay, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2:Well done.
Speaker 1:Right, and I do want to say this for people, because this was something that I think was the key to getting here. I firmly believe that our capacity to surrender to and find regulation when things are not working is equally matched by our capacity to be able to surrender and stay regulated when things are working. And so this summer and the year before that were probably the toughest moments of our life, and the reason why I feel like we came through that so differently was this was the first time that we all fully felt our feelings. We didn't hide shit. We said what was, what was there. We were willing to like get pissed at each other. We were willing to like feel all of it and to say and like to figure out what our truth was and to really examine all the pieces and parts and being in a state where I was like we were the brokest we'd ever been and I was like but you know what, I know who I am now.
Speaker 1:Before I had more money and my marriage looked quote unquote better, but I didn't know who I was, and I would stay like if you told me I never made another cent in my life and I, but I got to maintain the truth of who I was versus. I got all the money that you I wanted, but I had to go back to that. I don't know where my center is. I'm broke Right and that broke, I know. I know you want to call it that I don't have any money, cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it's yeah, going back, the thought of going Right and and like what I really know for myself in my, you know, 63 years, is that each step I take and I was talking about this earlier like we're all gonna continue on, the people that are drawn to this journey of Knowing oneself, you know, it's just gonna get rocky again, and so when it gets rocky, it doesn't mean that we're going down, it just means that we get to, like, go deeper and that's all that. It means we get to go deeper to love ourselves more deeply, to accept ourselves more deeply, to approve of ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is the medicine the thing that you just reminded me of is that when I was a nurse actually studying to be a nurse I shadowed my husband's cousin, patty who phenomenal human and we were in the ER and a gentleman who came in he had been driving under the influence and got an accident with an 18-wheeler and he was so intoxicated that he did not tense up. When the car hit the 18-wheeler and I was talking to the trauma physician, he said that is why he survived is because when that traumatic impact hit he didn't brace himself. He stayed soft and I was like, tell me more. He's like this is why a lot of times animals don't get hurt when they get in car accidents, because if they don't tense up Then there's not all of that tension in the body, the muscles aren't tight, the tendons aren't tight around the bones, they're less likely to break. That has also stuck with me for a really long time.
Speaker 1:I hope everyone listening to this knows I'm not condoning driving under the influence. That's not what I'm saying. The thing I took from that is like can I stay relaxed and surrendered when life happens and instead of armoring up, tensing up, bracing and Right fighting and instead going okay, this happened, how do I feel about it? What do I want to do next? That is something that has profoundly, even just changed my demeanor, like I've had people say you're, you're still really passionate and excited and like playful, but you're, you're calmer and I'm like, yeah, because I'm really starting to realize that Bracing hasn't gotten me anywhere and that you are committed to a practice of well-being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's. You know when, when, when I talk to my clients about this work, it's a practice. It's not you know, it's not something that you just do one, two, three to get to where you want to go. It is a practice to learn to feel your feelings. It is a practice to give ourselves time. It is a practice to Pause when we know things are getting super activating. It's all a spiritual practice. Yeah, yeah, and when, my god, in that, so much more comes from that and right, and I love that so much. Yeah, because then if I can stay, you know, and I don't again.
Speaker 2:I don't mean soft like you.
Speaker 1:let people hurt you, I mean soft into receptive, like and responsive, as opposed to. You know, I don't mean soft like you let people hurt you. I mean soft into receptive, like and responsive, as opposed to tensed up and reactive or like defensive. And I think of one of the very first conversations you and I had about activism and you're talking about like. You know this very.
Speaker 1:The word that came to mind is tense interaction, where you're braced for impact and the and the police and the people who are coming towards you Are braced for impact. And when you just think about that, if someone in a situation, if I'm in a situation with someone else or or Something else, and I brace, what do you think that other thing's gonna do? Right, if I'm resistant instead of being grounded and Flexibly firm and like knowing who I am and how I want to be and also not Coming at it from that fight or that fun perspective. I'm just okay, this is what's happening and that that is, I think, the most powerful a human can show up when it's when they're like I know who I am and Whatever comes towards me, I'm going to meet it, like you said, with curiosity and kindness and compassion, and also that doesn't mean I'm gonna move mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:It means we can be receptive. It means that we can be open to Engaging. Right, there's such a with ourselves and others, right, yeah, you know, and when I think of Interactive ism, it's truly about engaging with ourselves, first knowing ourselves. I love the analogy of being soft. When I think of being soft, it's being open, it's being curious, it's it's noticing, like what's going on in our body as well as what's what's going on in the interaction, like it is a Whole perspective rather than, you know, separate. It's it's a whole connection To events going on is so interesting. I love that analogy.
Speaker 1:I feel I say this so often because I have the best guests on here in the world. I feel like we could talk about this forever and I want to be cognizant of your time and our listeners time. So, because people are obviously gonna want to hear you. You speak on this, you're a public speaker, you coach humans through this, through this journey. So where can people find you and what is if you have one? What's like one thing that If you wanted people to walk away from, like around internal or inner activism that you'd be like take this, oh, you can be rebellious and say too, if you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I would say, unhook from Social media, unhook from electronics. Get out into nature and get your feet on the earth and just breathe, like you know. Get out of the environment we're used to being in and taking a new environment that is full of life. Like you know, our senses bring us so much pleasure. So, like when I'm out in nature, it just kind of brings me back to how little I really am and how interconnected we all are. Right, so that is just one thing, that and I do that a lot and it is really helpful for me. Moving our bodies is really helpful. Yeah, there are so many things, but I will leave you with that and the way you can get ahold of me, as you can go to my website at wwwkatimax katei e, m, a, c, k s dot com and you can get on a call with me. I'm here to support humans in their own Interactivism, to find their way to the love that is their center. I love that you brought that.
Speaker 1:I don't want to go, but fine. Thank you so much for being on here. I deeply appreciate you. I love you and thank you for such a rich conversation, oh thank you, I love too.
Speaker 2:I owe you. Bye, y'all, bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitation to head to our show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned. Or you can just head straight over to institute for trauma dot com and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the institute. Invitation to be well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.