Becoming Trauma-Informed
Welcome to Becoming Trauma Informed- The podcast where Dr. Lee and TLC bring you expert advice and strategies to understand what trauma is, how it affects our daily lives, and what we can do about it!
Dr. Lee is a DNP-prepared adult nurse practitioner a clinical trauma professional. She is an expert in helping people understand how past painful experiences affect their bodies & brains- and how to change their future for the better!
T. Lee Cordell, aka TLC, is Dr. Lee's co-host and partner (in business AND life!) He brings his research and historian experience to the podcast, helping us make connections and understand how history repeats itself.
Our podcast is explicit because we talk about lots of triggering and adult content (and we cuss on occasion!) so this is a content warning- listen with care & be gentle with yourselves.
Becoming Trauma-Informed
S4EP16: Beyond Traditional Methods: The Revolution of Joyful Leadership with Dana Shamas
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Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast, where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode, let's dive in. Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode.
Speaker 2:I am delighted to have a very wonderful guest here today, so we're going to have a conversation around two of my favorite topics in relation to leadership, and I think they're two of my favorite topics because they're things that people don't traditionally connect to leadership. So, without further ado, dana, welcome. Thank you. I'm going to just be vulnerable here. I completely forgot to ask how you say your last name before we start, so can you? Is it Shamas, shamas? Okay, great, dana, shamas and Dana. I always ask our guests to really tell us who they are themselves, because it's so much juicier than if I read it off of my computer screen. So tell us who you are, what you love and what intuition and joy really have to do with the work you're doing. Wow.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's a lot of topics in one. You pick and choose whatever parts of that you would like to share Great.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I appreciate that. So I am an executive leadership and wellness coach and I really came to be a coach very organically. It was a very long road and really what I do now brings together everything I've ever done before this point, and so it's really why I love to do it so much and it's so much fun and exciting, especially at this particular time. So, yeah, because we I started off super traditional. I worked in investment banking out of college, I did international development in Serbia and Croatia. I got an MBA in social entrepreneurship, I worked with health and wellness companies and eventually life brought me to a place where I opened my own business and had a bricks and mortar wellness center where I did therapeutic yoga, breakfast meditation, sound healing, kind of all that esoteric world at a really deep level, actually. And what I found was all my private clients, all my clients, were business people, they were all professionals, they were all entrepreneurs, they were doctors, they were lawyers, they were executives, and so what I found is that really I was doing a great deal of coaching in all these other things that I did, and so I pivoted fully to coaching and really focusing on one of the things that everybody reflected back to me, which was that I was very intuitive, right, and when people would work with me, I was always able to give them insight and perspective and connect dots on things they just didn't see or didn't perceive or didn't take in. And then I'm like, wow, you're just so intuitive.
Speaker 1:And as somebody who came from investment banking, I was like really, and so I leaned into that and I just really cultivated my intuition and my intuitive abilities and really began to see how intuitive leaders over my career and in the world that I was, were really successful. And like the moments where I saw leaders really excel were the moments that they trusted themselves and they trusted their intuition, right, the people who kind of just followed all the footsteps before them. They kind of just follow along, right, Like they're not those leaders that really create dynamic change, that really lead in a new way, and people who are really joyful and excited. You know they are just kind of. You know their leaders is fine, there's nothing wrong with it, but there's this other kind of way of leading which we're in a place now in the world that we were meeting.
Speaker 1:You know, I would say when I went to business school 10, 15 years ago, there wasn't a calling for this kind of leader and the way that there is now, because we know that the systems don't work right, we know what has gone before us is not solving the problems that are in front of us, and so that means you're going to have to find a different way, right, you're going to have to find a different way forward.
Speaker 1:You're going to have to find a different way to speak. You're going to have to find a different way to lead, right, and that's all going to come from your intuition and that's all going to come from your inner knowing and really trusting that. And it's really exciting because, people, you know, when you learn to trust yourself and you can lead with your own knowing, it's so powerful, right, it's so powerful for you and it's so powerful for everybody around you, right, Because it empowers everybody else. Right, like when you lead in that way, everybody else steps up and comes in at a different kind of level, and that's exciting, right, that's what creates shift and change.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was phenomenal. I'm like this is why I have you all tell us to. But honestly, this is just such a perfect example of okay, can I trust myself to go with the flow and introduce myself in a way that is right and works in this scenario that I've? You know, I know you've done podcasts before, but like that, I've never been with this host and this time, like, ask the question in this way, can I trust myself to answer it? And I know that that might seem like kind of a very small or silly example to some people who are listening, and, and that really is the crux of it, right, there is in every situation that I get into, you know, as a leader, where we're placing so much uncertainty and there's so much decision making, and I think the thing that trips a lot of leaders up is they are so focused thinking about how they should respond that they don't and they they haven't practiced or like embodied trusting themselves whatever comes out of my mouth is going to be the right thing.
Speaker 1:It's so true. It's so true. One of my funnest things to do with clients is really support them in before going into a big meeting, getting centered and in a place of really owning and understanding what they're bringing to the table. What they're bringing to the table isn't like a stack of research or presentation right, it's a presence, it's a perspective, it's a voice.
Speaker 2:I love that. I feel like that needs to go on like that, like that's a meme or a quote card, like it's not about the presentation, it's about your presence, and but they are so often that's what we do. We think, okay, I'm going into this space. There's all these other really important people or people that like decision makers or you know people that rely on me and there's so much pressure and it's been really fascinating for me as our company you know, our organization's grown and as I've been stepping into more leadership places and spaces, if I can trust myself and I can get grounded and like, like you said that word centered beforehand, like that's where my energy needs to go 100%.
Speaker 2:Because so often I'll go into a place is happening. The other day I got hired to do a training workshop. Go into the workshop. We got 25 through 25% of the slides. I kid you not. Like what I had planned is not what happened.
Speaker 2:We went with the flow and at the end I was like I'm I just want to say, like I apologize for not being able to get through this. And everyone was like, are you kidding? Like this was, this was exactly what we needed. This was so great. Like we don't care about the slides, we care about the fact that we were able to have this amazing conversation. And like I learned so much, and like that is in direct opposition to so much of what I learned when I was a professor, you know, when I was in leadership positions and I'm just curious too for you, like in the business world, it's probably very different than how you were conditioned to show up 100%, and I will tell you that the biggest part of my work is unlearning all that conditioning to value this way of being, because you are taught to look at all the things in the past and do all the research and have all the preparation.
Speaker 1:And, honestly, I find women struggle with this the most because, historically, you know the voice, like you had to have all the facts and then your voice still wasn't heard. Right, it's the proving, proving, proving versus now. If we, you know, we're now in a space and it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens way more than it ever has happened in the past where you clear your present and, like you, provide that channel, things begin to shift and change, and so that presence is really important.
Speaker 2:You just clicked something for me in my brain that I'm so grateful for. So I've been reading this book I don't want to talk about it by Terrence real, and it's actually about male depression, and in the book he is talking about how, as like, we repress little boys voice or hearts, and we repress little girls voices, yes. And what's so fascinating is is when we extrapolate that out to being an adult and a leader in a business or professional setting. Think about this. So so we are all learning to do business from this very calculated, logical, rational place. The presentation right, heartless, yes, yes, it's heartless. And so for men, that's easier because they've already been taught how to do that. For us as women, right, right, right. So so it's still not a good way of doing things. They've just had more practice at it.
Speaker 2:So then we're coming into this space and we're like, okay, well, I can't use my heart and I'm like really good at that, and I also haven't had the practice using my voice. So like I've got two barriers Now versus the one, and really we want to bring both. We want to have our voices and our hearts at the level and and I'm just like, sorry, it's just like this label moment of nobody's really bringing both unless they're doing the work that you are, you are helping them do and that you know is similar to the work that we do. Is is like who are you and who do you want to be, and like what does your heart look like? Like? What do you love? What do you care about? What is your purpose?
Speaker 1:what is your passion and how do you bring that forward? Yeah, what world do you want to see? How do you think things need to unfold, how do you want this meeting to go? And the highest investment what is the highest, highest purpose of this project and how do we go there?
Speaker 2:I love that. So one of the things that we've started doing is asking ourselves, like in our business spaces, how do you want to feel at the end of this project? Right, and people will say it was so interesting. We had somebody yesterday say aligned, and I was like, okay, what does alignment feel like? And I was like, because alignment is not actually a feeling, so we were getting into it and they actually ended up realizing they wanted to feel energized and for a lot of people, alignment wouldn't equate to energized, and so that's why it's so important to get to the feeling, and so we started talking about okay, well, how can you feel energized right now?
Speaker 2:Like what are the moves you can make right now that will help you feel energized in the moment and your future self will feel excited? You made them and feel more energized and like just watching this person's face, like they totally lit up and they're like, oh, oh, instead of doing this, like I need to be doing this, and they got so excited and I was like. I was like do you feel like you have more energy? And they're like, yes, and I'm like, okay, go do it. But those two questions of what do you think versus what do you feel like? Those are two different questions.
Speaker 1:And that will lead you into very different places.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And life experiences yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think was? Or let me ask this is a two-parter again. I'm really great at the two-parter what was your biggest struggle? Really bringing your voice to the table and like leading from this place of intuition and like following the joy and does that track with what you see in your clients, or is what they their biggest struggle, something different?
Speaker 1:Well, everybody's struggle is different. So there's that True Right. Like we all are individuals and part of my gift is really honoring you as an individual and supporting you in that process of discovering what you're, what you mean, and mastering your own system. Right, you're not mastering my system. You're not mastering the way I do things. You're mastering the way you do things right and what your heart desires. It's very different.
Speaker 2:That's so true. Thank you for that, because we do. We want to look at like what's the most common thing and, honestly, the most common thing is that everyone has a struggle. Right Like that's. That's the thing that we see is everyone has is going to bring some kind of something to the table around this. Yes, yes, Of course.
Speaker 1:What would happen. So, finding a struggle is letting go of all that training. You know, I I spent a lot of time and a lot of money in Western, in this way of being and doing, and you know, the truth was like that isn't it and it it was a struggle from the beginning. Right, it wasn't like, oh, I mean, I did suddenly realize many years later, it's like that's why all that didn't work for me. Okay, right, like that's why all that didn't come together, okay, but you know, we still live in this world where, as much as it's changing, as much as I see the old, you know, starting to crumble, there's still a lot that's really entrenched, and so, you know, it's hard to let go of that programming and being like, nope, this is the way forward and this is really what's needed. And thank goodness, I have so many practices and I have so many personal embodied experience of this knowing and this connection and this guidance that I'm like, right, this, this is it.
Speaker 1:This is and and that it's what people are missing, right, like my connection to nature, my connection to my knowing allows me to feel more and experience more and have that joy that's just unweavering, you know, and that curiosity that like, no, you don't have to struggle, you know things may not be perfect, they may not be exactly what you want, but, like the struggle, that's not, you don't have to do that, right, you don't have to be unhappy, you know you, you can choose it to be different and there is a way, you know, no matter what your situation is, no matter what your circumstances are, there is a pivot that is more joyful, you know. And so what is that Like? How do you teach yourself to learn how to pivot towards that versus like, let's just stay in the drudgery of the day to day, that this is the way things are done and what have you?
Speaker 2:What do you think or what do you feel? I'll ask in both ways Is the thing that prepares people to actually make that shift Because we talk about this a lot in our spaces there are people that they'll land on our proverbial doorstep and I'm like dude, like this is it? You know there's a lot of perceived victimhood, or there's a lot of cognitive dissonance, or like there's a lot like it's very clear what's going on. And you know, we gently invite the person to look at those things, and it's fascinating to me how some people are able to see it and others aren't. And so I'm curious. In your experience, you know, I have my own thoughts and I'm curious, like, what do you see as the difference between the people who go, oh, okay, like let me look at this, let me think about shifting this, and the people who are like nope, that's not going to work for me. Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:That wouldn't have been the two categories that I would have put them in.
Speaker 2:Oh, please, what would you put them in? I'm curious. I love how differently you you know actually I want to share this super quickly before like my biggest thing was being misunderstood and being wrong, and so I'm already just like deeply enjoying this podcast because I'm like I love that. She's like I want to look at it like that. Oh, tell me more, instead of being like, oh, I said it wrong or oh, I was misunderstood. That's where I'm like, oh, look, healing has been made. Yeah.
Speaker 1:How would?
Speaker 2:you? How would you categorize it Like what are the, what are the camps of people you see?
Speaker 1:Well, I'll start with your camp. I mean I don't think it's incorrect. I mean, obviously there are many camps, right, yeah? So what I see as the motivator? I see people in two categories as motivators. Right, one is pain, and this is the most common.
Speaker 1:So what I find is that people have to be in an immense amount of physical or emotional pain before it moves them to a place of change or curiosity. Like you know, you have to be at the bottom of the barrel and be like, oh my God, there's got to be a different way, because this is so painful and oftentimes it's like I can't, I can't, I just literally can't go on my body's in so much pain I'm. Whatever it is. I don't wish it were that way, but my experience tells me that it's really common. The other one is just curiosity. You know that people have an innate curiosity like, oh, it could be better, and those are kind of like the seeker categories, like I'm a seeker, I want, I want to know that better, I want to know that more, I want to know that. You know the juicy, more juicy, right, I taste it a little bit and I just have an inch that there's more out there In the example I always use, like as a yoga student.
Speaker 1:Initially, shavasana would give me this little tiny inkling of more. And when I found breath work, breath work gave me like, oh, yeah, there's way more. And so, you know, I had those embodied experiences, which is why I'm passionate about sharing them, because then, once you, once you have an embodied experience of more, you're like oh. I think that people who say, oh, nope, that's just not for me. You know, that's a category of people. They're like happy, they're unhappy enough with their life, like it's what they wanted. They're content, you know, and, and that's good. You know like, if you're good and with your life and you're content and you're like nope, that's not for me, no, thank you, great. So you go on and do what works for you and like what your content was, you don't see nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:I feel excited hearing your explanation of the two, because you know of the two kind of coming in and the one is like they're being pulled and the other is like they're being shoved, like life shoved them, and they're like, okay, fine. And the other side is like, oh my gosh, I've had this taste of something and I'm intrigued, like I want more. This is shifting the way I see things. It's shifting the way I experience things and as someone who's had a good amount of both sides, both experiences of like oh my gosh, this is so painful, I never want to do this again. And oh, wow, this is so new and so different.
Speaker 2:And like it's not even necessarily that it feels good, but oftentimes it doesn't feel good. Like the first breath work session I did, I think I sobbed so hard I almost threw up, like it was not like a fun experience. But when I was done I was like, oh, it was like, oh, this is how this can feel on the other side, like if I'm going to feel discomfort or pain either way, like why not choose the pain? That that takes me somewhere that is more more enjoyable to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the truth. And resolving the pain, right, like it's not just about feeling the pain and being in that place of pain, right, you actually go to a place where you resolve and integrate whatever that is, yeah, and that's like to me. I was like, oh yeah, okay, that's empowering. Now I have a tool that I can change my breath, I can change my body, I can change my life, I can change the way I create, right, like that's a whole different, whole different kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And, honestly, I love that you're talking about this and I love that so many of the people we have on the podcast are in these positions where I've had these experiences, like in more traditional settings, and are bringing them to more traditional settings because it's so important to me, it's so important. You know, being in healthcare and in the medical system, there's so much that people will be like how did your patient get better, like how did you do that? And I'm like I don't know, I just followed my gut, but what article? Or like what protocol? And I'm like number one. I sat down and I listened. You know presence. I sat down in the patient's room, I asked them extra questions, I went deeper than like we normally go and that alone, I think, just shifts so much and I think most leaders don't know how to be present.
Speaker 1:Correct, because I mean, in the example you just used doctors, right, and the system that we're currently in books and books and article article of how you were supposed to do things, legal regulations, how we're supposed to do things, proof of how you do things, right, like there's all these, this other background noise, right, that they're trying to fit whatever's in front of them into those things, into the appropriate boxes. It's really hard to be present. Yeah, and you know, the only way you can learn to be present with others is to learn to be present with yourself.
Speaker 2:And how hard is that? I know I spent the better part of 30 years trying to not be in my body, not be present with myself, so relearning how to do that. It was painful.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the level of self-forgiveness for spending those three years not in your body Also very challenging yeah.
Speaker 2:You know we tip-toed into breath work, which I would love to chat about a little bit more, because this is I think a lot of people hear it in their brain coast Like, potentially like a kinky place and potentially like a very woo or spiritual place. And then other people I know a lot of people have a good amount of trauma around their breathing, because I've worked with a lot of neurodivergent, autistic humans who, when they got overwhelmed or they got Over-stimulated, dysregulated, instead of anyone saying like what's going on, it was take a breath, calm down, and so anytime they hear, take a breath, like that actually Amps them up right.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious how did you get into breath work and how do you use it with your clients now?
Speaker 1:I use it with all my clients because what I? I got into it in a very I was managing a yoga studio and and somebody came in to do a workshop and it was, as you described, your first breath session. That was my first breath session, right. We're just so much emotion, so much sensation. But afterwards I was like, oh, this is different, right, and so I just dove down into that path and so I love giving people those Deep experiences with breath work, where it's a cathartic practice that moves you into an altered state of consciousness, so you're out of your thinking mind and you're really in your energetic body, so that you have different perspective, deeper connection to source Stage, deeper connection to self in a way that's hard for people to find in their walking life, right, that's why people do plant medicines or Other other avenues to find that connection.
Speaker 1:You can do it with your breath. So to me that's super empowering, and what I found as I I Win in to all kinds of energetic practices is that breath is the fundamental thing that moves and processes energy in your system. So if you are not breathing, it does not matter what you are doing. You are suppressing or repressing emotion and energy. Yeah, that's just like the way your energetic system works.
Speaker 2:Right, like your breath is the key in so many ways I and I love that you're speaking to this, because I do think a lot of our Medical health care practitioners listening to this, especially those who've been in the intensive care or in places there are so many things that are tied to your respiratory system, and your respiratory system is one of the biggest ways that you get rid of waste and toxins in your body, and people don't know that. So, like, if you're not breathing, you're not. That stuff's getting stuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your system can't work efficiently. Yeah, right, and it's both your physical system and your energetic system. Yes, right, so your breath is your link to your. It's your physical link to your etheric body, so you can just think about it, right, like you take in air which you cannot see but you know exists, right, and your body turns that into Energy. Yeah, and it enables you to do.
Speaker 1:You know you have cell. You sell your health, so your respiration happens right Because of that process. So you, that's really your link from the etheric world into the physical world. So from an energetic perspective, that's a really strong connection, as well as from a physical perspective, With my clients. I really use it because it's One. It helps them process emotion and helps them get to the source of where their emotion is, but it also is this really key Indicator as to where your mental state is and where your emotional state is, and so, like a Classic thing that I like to say is, if you're gonna walk into a meeting that you don't want to have or is gonna be hard, nine times out of ten you hold your breath before you walk into that meeting.
Speaker 1:Right, and so if you find yourself holding your breath before you do something or walk into a meeting, you know that's a note to self to be like okay, what are you processing? How aren't you present? Just take a few moments right, ground down, connect in and like have that connection and flow going?
Speaker 1:right and and. So you know, for leaders that's super important. You know, because look at all the difficult Situations, all the difficult conversations, all the unknowns, right, and if you're holding your breath through that, you're eventually gonna lead to burnout. You know, like that's just the reality, because there's just too much energy that you're suppressing or repressing. Yeah, holding right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm, just I'm. I was about to say feeling inspired, which that we use the word inspiration and expiration right for breathing, and and inspire means to take in breath, but that that SPIR is also the foundation of the word spirit. Yep, and so it's. It's this idea that we are breathing in like infinite intelligence source, like it's all around us and it's, it's Constantly available to us, and it makes so much sense that when we experience something painful and we stop breathing, we actually cut off our connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you don't want to experience it right.
Speaker 2:You don't want to experience unpleasant things pain, discomfort, yeah yeah yeah, and and we're cutting ourselves off from the very thing that is like, let me help you, like, let me help you move through this. You know, whether you believe in God or not, you know, or however you believe in in, that your breath is, is the source of renewal, and so it's. And we talk about this trauma is steeped in disconnection. You know that an event was traumatic if it disconnects you from yourself, someone else or the world. Yes, that's it. So the the beauty of the work you're doing is that you are helping people reconnect through this Source that every single person has Correct and that you already know how to do correct. Yeah, I don't even have to think about it. It's like we don't. We don't have to think about Breathing unless we've conditioned ourselves to stop breathing in specific scenarios, and so that's why you know, consciously choosing to practice modulating, you know shifting how you're breathing, that that reconditions your body To go. No, don't hold, don't hold your breath here right.
Speaker 1:It really also teaches you that you can move through those painful things right. The reason why we disconnect is because the pain and whatever form that looks like, the fear, is so great we don't believe we're gonna get to the other side, yeah, and so we stop, yeah, as a way of preservation. And so the breath you know, if you can teach yourself To use the breath and keep breathing, you will get to the other side, which is peace and ease and connection. You know, but if you stop you don't get to the other side. You know, and you just replay that, that whatever pain cycle, trauma cycle that is, yeah, you can really breathe and Process and get to that resolution and integration.
Speaker 2:It also makes me think about so many of the dysregulated behaviors that we use, that our body uses, and what's interesting is is that when we allow our body to actually use it and we process the event, it goes way better. Because you know, I'm thinking about fight, flight, fawning all of those require extra oxygen, and so what your body says is hey, you went into this response. That requires extra oxygen, I need you to breathe more, and so I'm inherently just start breathing more.
Speaker 2:And so this you know when our kids get really mad and or you know adults get really mad and they're shh and we're like dude, calm down, no, like, keep breathing. Like keep breathing the way you are breathing because your body is working it out, right, Right.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you watch a kid who has a tentative tension and you can, really this is a great thing. This is a tenture all the time. But many, many times, if you allow them just to a moat, right, like oftentimes they'll a moat, they'll get it out and they'll move on Right.
Speaker 2:You know, oh yes, this happened with one of our kiddos yesterday. They couldn't find their phone and they were like they were hot and they were breathing really heavy and being all sorts. And I got really dysregulated myself because I was trying to do something that was I was actually like urgent and they're trying to get me to stop the urgent thing by flailing and breathing loudly to do the not urgent thing of finding their phone. And at one point I started taking some really deep breaths and they were like what, you're just going to get upset with me? I was like how come you're allowed to be dysregulated and I'm not? I'm like, I'm not, I'm not telling you to stop, so don't tell me to stop. Like we are both allowed to have our individual experience right here and not make ourselves wrong for it, because we're not directing it at each other.
Speaker 2:And it was so interesting once we were done, they found their phone. Of course it was like right, where they left it, you know. And at the end I gave them a look and they gave me a look and then they cracked up laughing and I cracked up laughing and I was like are we good? They were like, yeah, we're good, and we moved on. Now. Does this child is this a child that we're working on patients with? Yeah, so is our ability to not interfere with their process as they learn how to be patient important? Yeah, like I don't need to tell them to calm down, I did. At first, I started to tell them and I was like you know what? No, you don't need to calm down, you can be mad. And I still got to finish this thing.
Speaker 1:That's right, they can both happen.
Speaker 2:Right, like we can both have our experience. And I don't know about you, but in leadership, that's like one of the biggest things we talk about is rupture and repair and people's unwillingness to have feeling and like yet even minorly dysregulated in a business setting because they don't know what to do. That's actually one of the scariest things we have people say Well, what if somebody gets upset? What if I get upset? What if these things happen? I'm like, okay, you have a process for that now.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And they can intuitively guide themselves right.
Speaker 1:But that takes a level of emotional responsibility. It does, and so most of us didn't grow up with an understanding how to be responsible with our emotions. So most people who get upset throw that upset in this up at everybody else around them and that's really where the harm happens. Right, so in your description is just amazing, right, like if you had the tools to be like hey, you know, I'm really upset about this, let me take a few minutes work with it and then come back. That's different.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and that's really what you're helping your clients do is to increase that. We, you know, we call it the window of tolerance. Like I, can have uncomfortable things happen and still be able to use the practices that I know work to bring myself back to a state of regulation. And it had never occurred to me that people wouldn't understand this until she said it and I was like, oh my gosh, of course she was saying the opposite of dysregulation isn't feeling nothing. Regulation isn't feeling nothing. It's you're still feeling the same feelings. Oftentimes, you're just a not making yourself wrong for them and B you're approaching them from a state of curiosity and vulnerability and you're able to process them. Right, you're actually able to think about them. Yes, yeah. So she's like so many people think that being regulated means you're not going to have these like emotional swings, and that is absolutely not the case. It's just that, instead of fighting the wave and going under and choking and sputtering, we're going to ride the waves and know how to like. Stay on your surfboard, you know.
Speaker 1:And to me, breathwork is the most powerful tool to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:If people want to learn more about breathwork, do you have a place that you send them? Obviously, they can come and work with me. Yeah, like what do you?
Speaker 1:yeah, okay, yeah, sure. I mean I work with people all the time on breathwork. It's definitely one of the tools that I share with everybody. The book that I often recommend is called the Presence Process by Michael Brown. Of course, presence.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:But that's you know. He lays out like a self program over 10 weeks and so you know, for people who are just getting started and just understanding, it's a nice tool that you don't necessarily need somebody else for.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that recommendation. We have a lot of readers and audiobook listeners, so that's perfect. Well, our time went so fast. I was just looking at the clock going, holy cow. If people want to learn more about working with you or about what you offer, where shall we send?
Speaker 1:them. My website danahshaniscom Perfect. It's the easiest place to find me. There are lots of other platforms. I'm on that. You'll have all my information right there and all different ways to work with me.
Speaker 2:Where is your favorite place to connect with people on social media or like where do you love sharing? Probably LinkedIn, okay, cool. I always like to ask that because you know I'm a Facebook or TikTok gal and so everyone's a little different. Okay, so that's the place you love. So good place for people to connect with you, for sure, awesome, yeah, okay, perfect, well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about breath, work and intuition and joy. I've deeply enjoyed this. I have. It's awesome. Yes, and to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Please go check out Dana's work and the recommendations in the show notes, and we will see you next week.
Speaker 1:Bye y'all.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitations to head to our show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned, or you can just head straight over to InstituteforTraumacom and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. Invitations to be well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.