.jpg)
Becoming Trauma-Informed
Welcome to Becoming Trauma Informed- The podcast where Dr. Lee and TLC bring you expert advice and strategies to understand what trauma is, how it affects our daily lives, and what we can do about it!
Dr. Lee is a DNP-prepared adult nurse practitioner a clinical trauma professional. She is an expert in helping people understand how past painful experiences affect their bodies & brains- and how to change their future for the better!
T. Lee Cordell, aka TLC, is Dr. Lee's co-host and partner (in business AND life!) He brings his research and historian experience to the podcast, helping us make connections and understand how history repeats itself.
Our podcast is explicit because we talk about lots of triggering and adult content (and we cuss on occasion!) so this is a content warning- listen with care & be gentle with yourselves.
Becoming Trauma-Informed
S4EP22: Revolutionizing Relationships through Understanding Trauma and Codependency
What if you could reshape your relationships, ensuring they're healthier, fulfilling, and less codependent? That's exactly what we're about to explore together in this episode, navigating the complex terrain of trauma and codependency. Dr Lee and her husband, TLC, open up about their personal journeys through trauma, revealing how becoming trauma-informed can dramatically shift your relationship dynamics.
They break down the concepts of codependency and trauma bonding, sharing firsthand accounts of how these often misunderstood dynamics have shaped their lives. From the influence of their upbringing to the critical importance of trauma-informed practice, they shine a light on the hidden forces that may be driving your relationships.
Learn how intentional communication, distress tolerance, and a deep understanding of self-care can transform your interactions with partners, bringing peace and connection.
They also challenge traditional gender roles within relationships, highlighting the societal conditioning that often leads to harmful patterns. They share their own struggles and triumphs in creating a balanced dynamic, where each person's needs are met without sacrificing their well-being.
Finally, they uncover the unexpected benefits of becoming trauma-informed, emphasizing how it can foster closer, safer relationships, regulate emotions and improve mental health. Join Dr. Lee and TLC as they delve into these poignant topics, offering practical tips and insights that could revolutionize your relationships.
Want to connect with us?
On the web:
On social:
By email:
- hello@institutefortrauma.com
Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode, let's dive in. Hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 1:So we got a lot of new people in the group and I'm super stoked to introduce you all to this amazing human right here, this dude. So, for those of you who don't know me, my name is Dr Lee. This is my incredible husband at TLC. He's also named Lee. So when we started the business and he was coming in a good amount of the time, we were like okay, this is going to get really confusing. Plus, in case you doubt that there's still misogyny or sexism in 2023, whenever we say Dr Lee and Lee, people are like oh, dr Lee and Lee and he's like no Dr, not Mr.
Speaker 2:So I will say that kind of fun with the Dr and Mr.
Speaker 1:Lee Cornell. Yeah, Dr and Mr Lee Cornell.
Speaker 2:So, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's just fun to kind of get to play with those assumptions and this is a way for us to not do that. So if you've never been in one of our containers before, where TLC is in there, the thing is is I try not to take offense to it, but people will really love you, like I think, even more than me. People are like, oh, tlc, and since the beginning of my business, anytime when I just worked with women, when I first started as a coach, anytime TLC would come in. People are like, oh my gosh, and I'm like, man, I should just have you here all the time because people like you and that's cool.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to hear it.
Speaker 1:I know right. So TLC and I if you've been in our space for a while, you know. If you haven't met him, I'm going to tell you We've been on a really interesting journey in our relationship these last few years, and part of that is our own individual trauma journeys and recovery, resilience journeys, becoming more regulated, psychologically safe humans, and part of it it was together, and so we really wanted to come in here and talk about this, because this is probably one of the areas that I don't personally see being talked about in a trauma informed way by most coaches or gurus or experts out there when it comes to relationships. And also I think it's helpful to hear about our experience and how we've done this, because I think it mirrors a lot of people's experiences, and so I personally think we're just a couple of steps on the journey in front of a lot of y'all, and so number one goal of today is to really explain how trauma and codependency can show up in a relationship and how being more trauma informed can help you with that. Second goal is really helping you see what it means and some practical answers to how you can be a more helpful partner. Or, you know, I think a lot of people come in because they want to learn how to get their partner to be more helpful, and I know that that was what I had really hoped was like that it was a him thing and not a me thing, and it turns out it was a both of us thing, but there was a lot more on my side of the street that I needed to address than I realized. So we want to talk about, like, how you can be a more helpful partner and just how you have the capacity, you have the power and the influence to be able to shift your relationship in a way so that it does feel better for you. And then the third thing is you know we're like super transparent about selling at the Institute. You know we have our trips conference coming up January 5th through 7th and honestly I think we've talked about it like that. The nickname of this conference behind the scenes which now it might just be the nickname in front of everyone, because we've said it a couple of times is the trip's toe dip, like a toe dip, a taste of what it feels like to be in our nine month trauma informed, psychologically safe certificate program.
Speaker 1:Because a lot of people don't know this TLC has gone through the program twice now. He's also gone through several of our other things. So, like he's my note taker a lot of the time when we were first starting, so I would like write the notes for the show, for the show, for the well, sometimes for the show podcast, I would write the notes for the things, the teachings, he would type them up. He would actually ask questions, which was super great because then it kind of helped me know where to go in the, the teachings and in the modules, and then he would be on live listening and taking notes, and so he's gone through this and has unintentionally gone on this journey with me. So I think that that is something that is a question we get asked.
Speaker 1:A lot is like well, did you both go through this? I went through this first and then, as I started teaching it and he came on to support in the business, he went through it kind of both as part of the business and personally, right, so both of us have lived the trips experience now multiple times, and so you know it's one thing to sell something that you're like, oh yeah, I really believe in this because I created it. It's another thing to sell something that you're like oh yeah, I really believe in this, not only because I created it, but because I've lived it. My husband's lived it, my sister's lived it. Like my friends have lived it, they've gone through it and everyone's like, oh my gosh, life feels so much better, even though it's still kind of a dumpster fire right now. It feels better. I'm better able to handle the dumpster fire. So I know I'm full of fun things today. I'm being goofy for you, okay.
Speaker 1:So before we get into this, you know we've talked about definitions being super important and actually, before I even do that, I'm curious for y'all, like why are you here? What are you hoping to get out of this? Whether you answer this in the comments or not, but I always think it's really helpful to go into a training with intention, because knowing what you want to hear, or knowing what you want to get out of something or what you're hoping to get it, can give you a lot of clarity. So first thing is definitions. So what is codependency? Right? This word gets thrown around a lot and I think that it gets overused a lot when we talk about codependency. Very simple definition, all right. I personally hate this definition because it shows me how many places I was codependent.
Speaker 1:But the definition is that you are looking outside of yourself to be okay.
Speaker 1:You're looking outside of yourself to regulate yourself. You are going external to and looking to your external reality to get your internal state to be good. The thing about being a human is we're constantly being influenced by our external environment, and one of the tenets to being trauma-informed and being a psychologically safe person is that you understand that you are the creator of your safety. You are the creator of your reality and you're the creator of your experience, and so, while life can throw some really, really, really, really awful stuff at you, and that is not your fault and that is not yours to say, oh you know, that happened because I called it in. We don't do that here, we don't talk like that in this space. You didn't call it in and you still have the ability to respond to that. So codependency is anywhere where you're like I want you to want something so that I'm okay, or I need you to need something so that I'm okay, or I have to. Right, I have to have this thing happen in order to be okay.
Speaker 2:Just to say too, it's not just between married couples.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people think of it just in that term when you hear it in modern, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate you pointing that out, because another term that we talk about in trips is a measurement, and measurement is where people have either implicit or explicit agreement that you are going to be responsible for one another. So it's like codependence amplified, and so a lot of times we can see codependence in parenting right, where you need your child to be okay for you to be okay, or you need your parent to be okay for you to be okay, and as kids, really it's our parent's job to teach us, and so you get to actually be responsible for your own regulation, and the people around you shouldn't be consistently activating you to the point that you have to keep going internal and making yourself okay. So it's a both and for sure. So the definition of trauma bonding is when we have unmet needs right, when we have patterns that have developed we talked about this in here to help when we have unmet needs as children and our caregivers or our elders, the people who are in our external environment, don't validate those needs. They invalidate them, they neglect them, they diminish them, they violate them, whatever.
Speaker 1:We learn that and it affects how we see ourselves, it affects how we see the world, it affects how we see relationships.
Speaker 1:And so if we have significant and serious or repeated experiences with our caregivers or our elders where we're either not taught how to internally regulate ourselves or where we are taught, it is your job to be codependent here.
Speaker 1:It is your job to manage this person's feelings or it's your job to not give a crap about this person's feelings and just like violate their boundaries and not care about them. When we have those things modeled for us and we take those on, what we find is, as we get older, we get into relationships with people who have similar patterns to what we have experienced in the past. And so when we have trauma as kids and we have this repetitive okay, I don't get my needs met in this way. So this is how I have to respond. When we have those experiences, then when we go out into the world, we do typically one of two things. If we haven't had that trauma resolved, is we either find somebody who is the exact opposite of the person who didn't meet our needs, and then we actually become a lot like our caregiver and we repeat the patterns, or we go find somebody who is just like our caregiver because we know what to do. We know how to show up in relationship with that person.
Speaker 2:I know that problem.
Speaker 1:So if any of you have ever been like, oh my gosh, you're just like my dad or like, oh my gosh, you remind me of my mother right now, that's one of the worst insults sometimes that we can throw at each other, right, is saying you're acting just like your mom or you're acting just like your dad. The reason we say that is because, okay, there is a pattern that's been repeated here. So when we think about how do we step out of codependency, how do we heal these bonds that have been forged through trauma, One of the big answers here is kind of what we talked about in here to help, that three-day event that we did last week, which the replays are still in here if you'd like to watch them. And that definition or, excuse me, that thing that we can do is to be helpful, right, and to be helpful in the trauma-informed definition of the word helpful. So the definition that we used in here to help, the definition we use for help at the Institute, is to make it easier in the long term for someone to do something by providing assistance, resources and or support. I'll say that again To make it easier in the long term for someone to do something by providing assistance, resources and support. Now, Thanks on day three of here to help we walk through like each part of those. And so TLC and I, when we were planning out this live today, I was like oh, like, let's walk back through those, but let's do it looking at this from the intimate relationship perspective. And before we do that, because some of you don't know us, some of you haven't been in our space or heard us talk before TLC has been on a couple of podcast episodes. We've done a few lives in here, but if you don't know us, like, I just wanna be really, really open and honest.
Speaker 1:Our relationship at times has been incredibly codependent and incredibly traumatic. Like they're having like very dysregulated. There have been particular pockets of time in our relationship that it's been really bad and there's been an underlying sense of codependency and trauma, bonding probably up until about a year ago. And it's fascinating because that's one of those things that I've said a few times during like one of our really gnarly fights. And I wanna be really clear here like there's not abuse, there's nothing like that, and witnessing anyone who does have that in your relationship please do not feel shame around that. Like we've screamed at each other. Like we've said very, very unkind things to one another, yeah, things that you're like oh man, if I could rewind 10 seconds, I would never say that again. And we wanna be really honest about that, because I don't think a lot of people talk about that. I don't think a lot of people don't talk about just how dysregulated their relationships are behind closed doors.
Speaker 2:Until, unless they end.
Speaker 1:Unless they end. I feel like what's they end? Then you hear, oh my God, yeah. Then you hear all the dirty laundry and all the things you know. We've been together for almost 19 years now. We met when we were 18. And so we have grown up together and this idea that, if you're like I've never been codependent with my partner there's no trauma bonding whatsoever in my relationship. Like write a book. Like please find a way to share your secrets with everybody, because we would all like to know them.
Speaker 2:Or maybe look a little deeper. Oh look a little deeper, Because that's kind of what I had and eventually, like we're lost, I thought what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:And this was something we were actually joking about, Like when I first started. I started the trauma journey first and I remember it happened because I became a certified clinical trauma professional and then went deeper into my training and during one of the trainings actually had an acute PTSD flashback and realized that there was a lot of abuse and some things not with TLC, but things that had happened before. That I didn't remember so, as I was working through that and was quite this regulated through that time. I remember one point, TLC being like you can't just blame everything on your trauma, and I was like you're right and I think what it was that like a year or two later you were like okay, you know, when I said that, Maybe I think, as I understood better and better what trauma was Cause again I know I probably said this before, but again, my initial thoughts on what trauma was was, I think, soldiers or you know natural disasters, that kind of thing, and I'm like, okay, that's trauma, that's what trauma is.
Speaker 2:And it took me until like big part of what was awesome about like going through when you would write out notes and I would go through, and I was like, oh, I kind of learning it a little bit there and then having it reinforcement all the time, I'm like, okay, I understand this in a different way. It definitely took a shift in my understanding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and thank you for speaking to that, because what we're going to share with you today, the reason why we're inviting you to the TRIPS TODIP and then the reason why, from there, we'll invite you into the nine month certificate program, is because this isn't just like oh, I learned this once and I'm going to go implement it and it's going to be super easy and everything like I've got it. Now, I mean that might be your experience. I don't want to like not speak that over you if that that could be your experience. And what I found is this is there's a reason we call it a trauma informed practice, because it's a practice, right, it is something that you do over and over and over and so and that you learn at and you keep coming back to and you go into deeper levels of over and over and over. So I just wanted to speak to our old patterns because there was so much, there was so much codependency, there was so much trauma bonding, there was so much stuff there, and so if that is you, we see you.
Speaker 1:And if you are like, oh gosh, I'm going through this alone, my partner's not even part of this, like, can this even help? Yeah, it absolutely can, because I did this on my own and you just heard TLC's initial response to looking at me coming trauma, informed and understanding my own trauma. So really I want to empower you, if you're watching this, to go like, oh yeah, I can actually do something here. This can actually like by me practicing this can shift and again this is true a true shift from codependence to interdependence, which is I want this man and I. This man makes my life so much easier and I love him and he is my best friend.
Speaker 1:And even in our hardest moment, when we were like, are we still gonna stay married? I was like well, the problem is is that even if we don't stay married, you're still my best friend, so I'm still gonna call you every day. And then also there are other fun things that I like to do with you that I would not necessarily like to give up. So if you're my best friend, then I want to call every day and there's fun things that we do that I really like, like maybe we just stay married and work through it, so yeah, so the first part of this definition of help is intentionality, and this is something that when you think about how you wanna help your partner or you want to be helpful or you want to be helped.
Speaker 1:Intentionality is key. What I think most people don't understand and I was actually just getting all riled up about this before we got on here I was doing a bunch of research into nonviolent communication and really like, looking at this, the thing about intentionality is, in order for it to be, interdependence, where I know that I've got myself, I know I've got myself is that you really can't come to this with manipulation. Right, we really can't come to this with manipulation.
Speaker 2:You can try.
Speaker 1:I mean, you can try, but like, how's that working out for you? Because, and I did not realize how much I was manipulating myself and TLC, did you realize how much you were manipulating yourself for me? No, when we really looked at our yeah.
Speaker 1:When we sat down and looked at our communication and we're like, okay, how can we make life easier in the long term? So much of what we were doing when we were communicating was trying to get life to feel easier in the short term. So we were trying to end the fight, we were trying to get the immediate need map, we were trying to just handle the situation in the moment. We didn't really have distress tolerance, and what I mean by that is I and I won't speak for you I didn't really have distress tolerance. Like thinking about TLC walking away when we were in the middle of a fight and letting him walk away, even though cognitively, like logically, I knew he's my husband, we're married, he's not going anywhere. My body in that moment was like yeah, but he's leaving. He's leaving you, he's abandoning you, he's rejecting you and, interestingly, one of the terms, one of the phrases that TLC would use a lot in that moment is I'm going to leave you alone, yeah.
Speaker 1:He's like I'm just going to leave you alone so I can calm down and you can calm down, and-.
Speaker 2:Which seemed reasonable, it does, it seems really reasonable.
Speaker 1:But what we realized is that that was very manipulative and not from the space of him, not trying to get his needs met. But he was saying I can't handle right, I can't tolerate the distress that your activation, your anger, your anxiety is causing me, so I'm going to walk away and then I'm over here, not able to tolerate the distress of us distancing ourselves not disconnecting, but distancing ourselves to be able to calm down, to be able to relax, to be able to get more regulated and then have a conversation that actually went more calmly and something interesting over these last few months, as this has really dropped in, as we've both really been looking at manipulation over this last year and these last couple of months we had this conversation this morning. Do you want to tell this about what happened this morning or do you want me to?
Speaker 2:tell it no, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm telling you what.
Speaker 2:No, you're crazy.
Speaker 1:So when this morning we were sitting down to plan this out, tlc is not. He's becoming more of a morning person, becoming more of a morning person. But I'm the one that's like up at 6 am. He's the one that's like stumbling upstairs Cramer style at 8 30, like needs 15 minutes. I'm the one who wakes up and is generally like a songbirds.
Speaker 1:So he laid on the couch and I was like feeling a lot of anxiety. Number one, I hadn't eaten, which I forgot. And number two, I was just like oh my gosh, I really want to get this planned out, because I know it matters to him to get this planned out. I know that I'm the one who can just come up on here and, on the fly, do an hour of life. He's like let's have an outline, right. So I just like started in.
Speaker 1:I started in and I didn't realize how amped up I was, and so we're writing notes. And he starts talking and I interrupt him. And then I ask him something else and he starts talking again and I interrupt him again. And what did you say? How did you say it? He like very gently, I know what you did. He's like give me your hand. I was like okay, he's like listen, I know this is really important to you and I need to be able to be a little bit silly right now and I need to be able to wake up a little bit right now because, like, that's what I need. And if you need this to be super serious and you need us to be able to like bang this out really quickly, then we either need to reschedule the live or we need to wait a couple of minutes.
Speaker 2:And he's Plus. I've noticed, when I first wake up, sometimes I don't recall everything that was said. I you know, and so that's one of those things I feel like when it's something that's important to me, I wanna make sure I'm able to like remember what was said, and there's not like a situation where I'm like oh yeah. Where there's that confusion.
Speaker 1:Well, and the thing of this is, before we did our distress tolerance work, he wouldn't have said that I would have kept going, you would have snapped and not been very kind to me because you're cranky and tired and I'm pushing your buttons, and then I would have taken it very offensively and I would have been like, oh my gosh, I made a mistake, I disappointed him, I like didn't act the way I should have, I misunderstood something. I would have told myself a lot of stories based on my past trauma and my past painful conditioning and we would have ended up in a big ass fight and we wouldn't be on this live right now. When he took my hand and then I was like okay, I was like you know what, I'm hungry, I haven't eaten. And I was like I'm gonna go get some food Before trying to.
Speaker 1:You know, doing the distress tolerance work, understanding how my body recognized things, that TLC that you were doing, that reminded me of my childhood or past relationships and my brain going that's dangerous, that's dangerous. You need to handle that, my ability to understand that and practice going okay, and some of y'all might laugh at this, but this is literally what I do and I hope, when I say this, I do wanna provide a little context. I am not joking about death, because that's not actually. I'm not joking at all when I say this statement to myself. This is a way to remind my nervous system of what is actually happening is.
Speaker 1:I will ask myself am I dying? Am I like, am I dying? Because it feels like I'm dying? It feels like if I don't handle this right away, the anxiety is so high and the need to solve the thing in the moment is so strong or the I shouldn't say the need, the urge to solve it in the moment is so strong that thinking longterm feels like impossible. And so what I've practiced is going am I dying? And if the answer to that is no, I go okay. Am I safe? Am I safe? And so Lisa Payne, who's in here she's also gone through our TRIPS program. She's one of my favorite humans on the planet. She has a saying in this moment, I am safe. I am safe in this moment, and that helps me so much. It helps me so much to just stop and say that for a moment, and the cool part about our conversation this morning was I didn't have to do that, even because your side of your distress tolerance has been learning how to not activate me to that state in the first place.
Speaker 2:And then also just to then appease and just be like, okay, well, let's just keep it going, because, like that's what you want and that's what, rather than taking a moment holding your hand, seeing what's going on with you I think I would. I used to get more I'm going to be like, oh okay, I just need to do whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like that wasn't really good for either of us.
Speaker 1:No, because I could tell you didn't really want to do it and that came from your pattern around and your past painful conditioning and experiences around being quote unquote selfish right.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, that would be my head In my head.
Speaker 2:I'm like even in a situation where, like, right there, where it was more beneficial to take a minute, have you get some food, take you know some breaths, get me kind of woken up, have a little bit of coffee and not or you know some caffeine and kind of getting more into the right headspace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, I never would have done that because I would have seen me saying like, hold on, let's actually take a minute. I would have been like, oh, that's just me being selfish, because she really wants to get this plan now and if I can't be there for that, well, that's me like either failing or I would see it, you know, as like as a negative on myself. Yeah, and so just kind of realizing, no, no, no, that's not me being selfish, that's not me being like that's actually beneficial to both of us in the long term, like you were saying. Yeah, maybe in the short term, like right at that moment, it may have been felt slightly easier, but it was that recognition of like. Okay, if you have an attitude and I'm still tired, what are the chances that this is actually going to go the way either of us expected to go or wanted to go.
Speaker 1:Right, and I thank you because I think this shift was is both of us coming to the point of being more self centered and and and I don't think that in a negative connotation at all Both of us have now, instead of going, well, what do I need to do to make them good, so I'm good, it's, or how do I need to twist or turn myself up in a way to so that they feel good? So then I can feel good, so it's okay. Hold on a second. What do I need to be good? And and what? What does he need to be good and not? How do I manipulate myself so that they're happy it's? How do I take care of myself, how do I make it easier for myself so that I can then be helpful, and one of the things that has been we weren't planning on talking about this, but I know that there's a lot of people in here who struggle with this One of the things for me has actually been allowing myself to feel fully, feel the full range of my emotions, and to not spew them onto people, to not externalize them in a way that it hurts other people, and also to not shove them down or push them aside, and so you know, this morning I think I said it to him like three times as I was going into kitchen I was like this is just because I'm really hungry.
Speaker 1:And also, like I know I'm being, what did I say? I was like I know I'm being really controlling and I know I'm being really directive and that's not how I want to show up in our relationship, because it's not actually how it feels good for me to show up in our relationship. But right now I can't help it because I'm really hungry. So I'm going to go eat some omelets and then we'll come back and we'll try this and also like, please, I understand if you're upset with me, that's totally cool, feel the way you want to feel. And also, I can't help this right now. And he was like okay, cool, and having you not make a big deal out of those moments because you're not like, oh my gosh, she's feeling something and I need to fix her so she stops feeling the thing In the short term. I'm sure that doesn't feel very comfortable for you.
Speaker 2:I will say to, though, as I've been, as we've been doing this more and more, I've noticed my level of distress wise, because, yeah, I think before that would have maybe more bothered me and was there maybe a little bit of like for a split second of like, and then I was like hold on now, like I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna sit here per minute, stretch out, kind of like like wake up, and also you can do your thing, and I wasn't like upset with you. No, I mean, I think that was the biggest shift, for me at least, of not seeing them being like oh, you're doing something wrong, or there's something this, or there's how a problem that now needs like well, this needs fix. I need to. You know what I mean. It was like, no, you're okay, you're not doing anything wrong, you're hungry. That's a normal human emotion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, or it's, yeah, it's normal human state, and, especially for me, I have a familial hypoglycemia thing, and so, like, hunger is a thing, it's always been a thing, and so the other piece of this that I want to pull forward here to is you know, when we look at the definition of being a helpful partner, we talk about making it easier in the long term. What does it mean to make it easier? Right, and so when we talk about the word easy, we talk about it meaning the absence of difficulty, making something less that is inherently painful less so, right, making something uncomfortable a little bit easier to do. And so I think that what we've already talked about speaks to this. And I want to go to a place that a lot of you were like, ooh, a lot of you are like I'm going to come watch the live because you're talking about this, and I want to go to this place, and I'm going to be perfectly honest with you it is very hard for me to go to this place. I do want to just provide some context before I go here. Here's the thing. So, you know, we're pretty deep into, like the, the traditional gender roles, and so like, not in the way that a lot of people think. So I'm going to talk about this in a way, and I'm going to like ask you to bear with me for a second, because I've never verbalized this the way that I'm about to. I always feel a little vulnerable for me to talk about this.
Speaker 1:When I really sat down and looked at how I was showing up towards TLC, I still remember one of the biggest fights we had and I remember saying to him and it was so mean, you know, talk about things you want to take back. I was like I don't want to be in a marriage with a little boy. And he said back to me well then, you should probably stop mothering me because I already have a mom. And I was like I really don't like you. What I realized is that I was taking on so much mothering energy, so much it's my job to make sure everybody is quote unquote good, and the way in which we have defined motherhood, in my opinion this is my opinion is it's actually very codependent.
Speaker 1:We have taught moms that they are responsible for all of their child's needs and, in a less like, a less intense way, but also in a pretty significant way, we've taught parents that they are in charge of all of their kids needs and that they are responsible for meeting all of their kids needs. There is a difference between being responsible for meeting someone's needs and being responsible for ensuring someone's needs are met. Okay, so the difference in that is it is my job for my children to be as helpful as possible. It is not my responsibility to ensure or to personally meet every single one of their wishes, desires, needs. It is my responsibility to make sure that their core needs are met, meaning that their resources are provided, that they're they feel safe and they feel loved and they feel accepted and that they have as much choice and agency as possible, barring, you know, harm to them.
Speaker 1:And that is not the role that I take on as a wife or as a partner with my husband. The role that I take on with my husband is the one that he and I have personally curated and really been intentional about and asked ourselves what is the easiest for us, what, what is the way in which, when we show up together and when I show up in our marriage, that creates an absence of difficulty. And for me, what that means is I think a lot of people see me in business and they see me out there on stages and they're like oh, you're the, you're the one who's the primary income and you're all of these things. Like you're a boss babe, like you're you're a super independent woman. I'm like y'all, I'm a toddler. Like I need you to hear this. Okay, I am a toddler.
Speaker 1:The reason without my husband, I wouldn't make any money, okay, or I would make a lot of money and I would be absolutely miserable. Because the reason that I am able to show up the way that I do is because it is and I have sat down, we have sat down and gone what makes our life the easiest. And so for me it's. I'm going to show up in business and I'm going to show up in my zone of genius here, and then I'm not going to take care of a lot of stuff other places. I'm kind of going to be a little bit of a princess about this or a queen about this, like I am going to ensure that everything is handled and I'm going to ensure that what I have responsibility for is mine and I'm done taking responsibility for stuff that's not mine. And the first thing that I gave up responsibility for it was his emotional state, and Terrence real, who talks a lot about men and depression and and the self esteem of men, talks about this is that the way in which we now show up in society is we have made it women's to bolster the emotional self esteem of their partners, especially in heteronormative relationships.
Speaker 1:And the reason that and I hear this time and time and time and time again the reason that I personally believe that so many heteronormative relationships fail is because they have this mother boy energy to them. Because nobody has taught us, like you're not responsible for your, your partner's emotional state, that is theirs. Like you do not need to be codependent in that way. And no one has taught men like hey, are people you know, conditioned, raised as men, boys and men. Like hey, it's not her job to make sure you're good, it's your job to make sure you're good. And this comes a lot from how we mother. This comes a lot from how we mother, because if I mother my son that I'm gonna take care of all of his needs, and if I mother my other two children that, like it is their job, I model for them, that it is their job to take care of everyone else's needs and not their own, then I am actually perpetuating this.
Speaker 1:And so, interestingly enough, we had some family over the other day and I was tired. I just I think I had worked all day, I had done like a four hour VIP day and I'd done some stuff and I was laying on the couch and TLC kept checking in and going what can I get you, what do you need? And the family who was over they were like, oh, like, look at you getting the royal treatment. And I was like this is a normal Tuesday.
Speaker 1:Okay, and the reason this is a normal Tuesday is not because I am like selfish or the relationship is one sided, like it feels really good. It feels easy for him to provide for me that way, and then it feels easy for me to go run an Institute, and then it feels easy for me to come back home and play with my kids and it feels easy for him to make sure everything's taken care of from a finance bills perspective and from a house perspective and all of those things. Like this is what feels easiest for us. And in order to get here, I had to own that. A lot of what I was feeling resentment around towards you for how you weren't showing up. What's my doing?
Speaker 2:You know. So in some ways too, my trauma wise of just terms of like views that I had of masculinity and you know, being the man, you know, and I had some family members who were the opposite. You know what I mean. Where it was, the man controlled everything and it was the really old school. You know, woman has no real voice. And I had some family members and I was just like I don't want to be that Like I want to and if anything, I went so hard trying to stay away from that. Yeah, that, you know I'm like that doesn't work either. You know it's. You know that pendulum, if you will, just swinging to the other direction, isn't always the answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, we had an argument the other day right when I was starting to get really sick, and when I get sick I get super dysregulated. It's something we've learned of like. Look, just nothing that comes out of my mouth, luckily it happens rarely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, but like we both just went, you know what let's. Just he was like just go to bed, like just go watch Boston Legal. Oh my gosh, can you please let our distinguished gentleman into the room? Thank you, our dog has decided he has to be with us right now.
Speaker 1:So you know, when I was really sick and I was really dysregulated, I was just kind of like I went back into codependent mode and you know I'm already in this uncomfortable situation and I was so, so impressed with, I was so appreciative of you TLC, because he literally stopped me at one point and he was like look, you can say whatever you wanna say and you can do whatever you wanna do, and I don't have to sit here and listen to it. And if you're gonna be mean to me or you're gonna say like shit about me, right now I don't have the space for that. So like you get big and you do your thing and also like, do you want me to stay? Because if you want me to stay, you need to stop. And I was like, okay, right, and what's so fascinating is before he wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I would just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And what I realized is is we've seen this pattern in our kids.
Speaker 2:Then I would get upset and then it would start becoming a thing and it's like it didn't need to be.
Speaker 1:So, you know, this absence of difficulty for us is him being more directive and corrective and like providing the structure and saying this is how things are gonna go. And he's doing that from a place of like really caring about me and being devoted to me and our family and like me being able to, just, like I said, be a toddler, like when we go places. Now, half the time I don't bring my wallet, like half the time I'm like, I'm like where are we going? What's going on? You know and I know that that seems kind of silly and it is because I feel so safe. I feel so safe. I'm like TLC has got it and he's told me he's got it, so I don't have to worry about anything, unless he specifically tells me to worry about or to do something. And then that's the thing that I'm gonna concern myself with.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to the Institute, when it comes to my business, like the agreement there is, he's like I'm not the expert there, I'm not the one who's gonna tell you what to do. I trust you, that's your place. And like I'm not gonna. And he knows that I really love it If he sees me doing something that he's like are you sure that's what you wanna do? I'm not gonna freak out on him anymore because I know he's not. He is coming from a place of devotion, he is coming from a place of regulation. I know half the time he doesn't even wanna say the thing to me because he's like I really care about you and I don't wanna say something that in the short term, feels shitty for you to hear and in the long term I think it's important to say it.
Speaker 2:And I will say it took me a little while and still, sometimes it still maybe need like a second to be like okay, like it's actually okay All right, like it is, because there's still is. There's a little part of it that's like wait, is this okay? Like no, yes, this is actually, you know, and it is one of those where that, in terms of the provision and stuff, of seeing that like there are other ways to protect and to provide, like when you're sick even still and I don't mean this but like letting you like to keep trying to work, to keep pushing through, because you will push through that is generally what you do, but you don't. Then later you're like, okay, you get also burned out physically and mentally, and then it's you know, you tend to feel worse for longer, or things like that, and it's like, yeah, it is hard in the short term too, when you're not feeling well, but it's like, no, what is actually better for you? What is better for us? What is you know? But yeah, it's like it is getting better though.
Speaker 2:But it did take me, it was not an easy book process.
Speaker 1:And you, coming from the place of like and I want to be really clear here you anticipate my needs now a lot of the time. Now he's not going. Oh, I want to make sure she's good for you know, sexy time later tonight. So, like, let me take care of her right now. That used to happen. I used to do the same thing, like, let me make sure I'm taking care of things. So like that was an area for us that you know.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of manipulation that came in too. I don't know if anyone else has had this experience, but I was taught to objectify myself, my body, and a lot of men are taught to objectify women's bodies too, and vice versa. Yeah, put it pro quo, like I do this and then she'll do this, and that's manipulative as heck. Right, and there were so many times I was doing that where I was trying to manipulate my no or my not now, or my not like this into a yes to make him happy and vice versa. And you know, like just even being able to own our needs around that and be honest with each other of like, yeah, I would love to my ability to say hey.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling really anxious about this right now because I need to talk something through first, and I know that that typically turns you off and also I'm not going to be able to get turned on unless I get this out of my head. So, like, what should we do? Right there there's this. We're even able to have this conversation of like, okay, well, what do we do? And it doesn't mean that in the moment, that need of sexual gratification, that desire for sexual gratification is going to get met for both of us. But what it does mean is that our need for safety with each other, our need for psychological safety and our need for agency, those get met. My ability to choose whether what I do with my body, your ability to choose what you do with your body, and then us being able to like, bring our full selves and own how we're feeling that's way more important than a moment of sexual gratification.
Speaker 2:And also, and knowing that's the case and knowing that's what's going on when there are times like that, at least to me. I don't know if this is an everybody thing, but it makes it so much better in general, because then it's like you're not having to worry like, oh, is this, is she actually into this? Is this something you know she's trying to just do because you feel like especially obliged. You know, like that would always bother me, and now it's like not having to think is that the case? Is that what's going on right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can trust my yes right.
Speaker 2:Exactly because knowing that there could be a no makes me realize that the yes, that in that case, yeah, you can definitely trust the way more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. So there's two other pieces to this. The next piece is that long-term piece and that mutually beneficial piece of it's, kind of the same way as in parenting, and notice how many parallels there are between parenting and between intimate relationships. Remember, that's our model, our model for how we are loved, how we are treated, how we are nourished, how we are nurtured, how we are appreciated. All of those things come from our interactions with our caregivers. So I think a lot of people make that really wrong. They're like, oh my gosh, you're talking about this intimate, potentially sexual relationship here, but like you're also talking about parents. Well, no, we're talking about love, we're talking about connection, we're talking about the meaning of needs, and you learn that through modeling, and so you know when you think about mutually beneficial and that short-term, long-term piece.
Speaker 1:So one of the other things that we've done that has actually really shifted our relationship is he provides most of the discipline with the kids. He is the one that's going to discipline, he's going to correct and direct the kids and gosh, can I just say how good that feels to not have to like our son, who's, you know, 11 and a half. We've noticed in the last six months he just not listened to me when I step into that directive corrective place. However, if I gently ask him to do something, that is when he will listen to me and I'm noticing like he is becoming from a socialization perspective and from a biological perspective. He's really stepping into that journey into manhood and so it makes a lot of sense that me trying to discipline him. He's like Lady Alma's tall as you are almost like, and it's not any. That's important. It's important for our kids to separate that way, and you had a really good example of the longterm piece versus it not feeling good in the now with the kids and then also with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think one of the big things is just really, especially now that our kids at least are old enough, really kind of like pointing out why, giving them the why at least and again, I know especially like ADHD wise and stuff, like that seems to be why being a really big thing. But like, too, they know people, your kids generally will see other kids and recognize like, oh, there's some kids that just don't listen to the teachers, they don't pay any attention. And I'm like, and you see how that causes, like especially Shalya was saying like, oh, it drives me crazy because then the teacher can't teach and I can't learn and this and that. And I'm like, yeah, because there are longer term consequences that you can easily see. And I think sometimes when they kind of start recognizing that, it almost makes it even easier when it comes to like, hey, there's chores, I need you to do chores and not having where it's like, oh, you're just coming in.
Speaker 2:But it's like when they really see the benefit as well, as like oh, yeah, yeah, okay, but discipline is a good thing to have guys and like here's why. And they're like, oh, yeah, and it seemed to go really well. Ray actually came and said something the one day of like okay, I can probably understand why you said these things, you know why you were disciplined, cause, yeah, that makes sense. And actually they even said thank you and I was like, well, this is kinda.
Speaker 2:I know I don't know this is cool, but like.
Speaker 1:Well, and that is, you know, not every parent child relationship is gonna look like that, just because every kid is different and every kid has different needs. And I think one of the things that we realized was just how much pressure we were trying to put on ourselves to go like well, we both need to equally discipline, we both need to show up this way. And, by the way, I just wanna say this to anyone who is single parenting out there or co-parenting Like I will buy you a coffee, like I mean, you are having to fulfill both roles at once right now. I wanna just honor that and witness that, and part of really learning okay when I, or doing this work for yourself is okay if and when I get into relationship with someone. Again, how do I ensure that this feels the way that I want it to feel? And so I just want to.
Speaker 1:If you're like well, there's no point in me doing this because I can't really, yeah, right now you're having to fulfill both roles. And If you didn't have to fulfill both rules, what would feel good? Right, like what? How would it feel good to be in relationship with a partner? How would it feel good to be more regulated with a partner.
Speaker 1:But you know, tlc had a lot of conditioning growing up around not really having to be accountable, like there wasn't part of the reason that chores is important for us and that it has been so healing for him to take over the discipline and for me to get to do more of the like loving and caring when they're sick or when they're they have like a physical or like a nurture need. The reason that that's felt so good is because the household I grew up in chores were like really, really, that was a big thing and there were, it was like a big deal if you do not do your chores or do what was expected of you. Tlc had kind of the opposite scenario of I'm pretty sure I taught you how to do laundry at 19.
Speaker 2:So I was definitely. I think I had you do by laundry. Yeah, I think it was like 20.
Speaker 1:That's one of the reasons your mom told me to stick around was because I you tried to get me to do your laundry and I was like I will not do it.
Speaker 2:I will teach you how.
Speaker 1:And the thing of that is, is that him stepping into more of the okay, I'm going to hold myself accountable and I'm going to provide the structure for everyone here and me asking myself okay, you know what? I have been so structured my whole stinking life Like I need to be able to flow a little more. I need to be able to relax a little more. I need to be able to trust him and trust my children that they're going to do what they say they're going to do. The other thing about mutually beneficial is I think society just says so many different ways that we're supposed to do things, and I really wanted to speak on this. You know we already talked about the monetary part, y'all like this is why I said we follow like traditional gender roles or polarity, or masculine whatever, whatever terms you want to use to a point. And then we also went okay, but like, how does this work for us Is because there is no box when it comes to your relationship and when you, everybody has different trauma and everybody has different ways of of liking to get their needs met, and so you've got to find the way that works for both of you, or all of you If you're in a polyamorous relationship. You know I've used this example before, but dinner right, like technically, I should be the one cooking dinner right and he should be out. Bring it home to bacon. I should be the one frying it up in the pan. Guess what that's. I don't know if any of you have seen grocery prices in 2023 or you have seen like it. Like, our situation of one solo income is not the norm and it is not something that most people can survive on. And so, likely, if you're in a partnership, both of you are working or both of you have a lot of stuff on your plate, and the idea that, like, you have to do things because, number one, you've always done them that way or, number two, because society tells you you have to do them that way, is BS. And so, like, when it comes to dinner, tlc is a better cook than I am. I don't follow steps well, so I leave out, I leave stuff out, I leave out ingredients, I leave out steps. I'm like, why don't this work? And so, if it's dinner time, tlc, I'm not asking everybody what's for dinner. Tlc was out of town for seven days and I think I ordered food every day. I think I cooked like two nights. But the thing is, is that's what works If it's my responsibility to that night? If he said, hey, I'm busy, I need you to do dinner, or I don't feel well, I need you to do dinner, we're ordering food. He knows that. If he's like, hey, I want to cook, and he asks what I want, like I'll answer him, but also I trust he's going to make what he wants to make and so there is no box around that, like you're able to look at what works for both of you.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing is that provision of assistance and support and resources and I think we've touched on this already. But just knowing that, like sometimes less is more. And I'm talking to you other hyper independent women who were taught to manage everybody's feelings around you all the time and make sure you met every single person's needs and also worked out and ate healthy and got eight hours of sleep and looked gorgeous and all the things Right those of you who were taught to have it all and be at all like I was. What I have realized is is that being learning to be trauma informed has been so helpful in staying regulated when someone else needs help and actually checking in with myself and going. Is this a place that any of my assistance or resources are needed, or is this a place where the most helpful thing I can do is allow this person or allow my partner to find his own resources or to ask me first Once he's determined he needs something?
Speaker 2:And it feels and I think that's the thing too, maybe that people don't realize is that feels good for me too. Yeah, like, not just in a year place, but like being able to provide that. Being able to be like, oh yeah, okay, I can cook pretty well and I can actually do this, and this is some way in which to like another way, but a way I can contribute and be able to do things. I'm like that feels good for me as well. It's not like like for you. That would probably feel like work, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, like you're having to develop a cookie like that would feel like work for you, whereas for me I'm like oh, okay, let me come up with like two or three different you know options and then kind of figure it out and like cook it up and see how it comes out. I'm like that's enjoyable to me. So it's like in some ways, if you were following the prescribed notion yeah, I wouldn't get to cook, even though I enjoy it, and you would be doing something you didn't enjoy.
Speaker 1:And our kids would hate their life because everything they ate would suck. So, like, really, it's just a reminder that you get to check in and go. What is it that would actually feel really good for me? And this is a huge part. People don't think about this as being part of being trauma informed. This is a huge part of being trauma informed because it's self-regulation work, it's a distress tolerance work, it's being able to be aware of where the past painful conditioning comes in and respond to it, be sensitive to it in a way that's super supportive. So I hope that this has been helpful for y'all. And I have one more question for you, babe. Yes, you know you've gone through all these experiences. I know you're like dude, people should get in the toe dip. We were already having this conversation separately. Like I'm not just yes, he's biased, and also he was saying this without prompting. What has been the best part for you of becoming more trauma informed? Like what did you not expect that? You're like, wow, this is so much better.
Speaker 2:I think in a big way my assumption, I guess maybe along that was the idea like that if I were to become trauma informed we would have maybe a better relationship. But in so many other aspects of life I've really noticed where there's been a lot more benefit to the kids when it comes to parenting, when it comes to just mental health wise Recognizing, I feel like and again I'm not to not go into things, but I feel like mentally speaking wise, I'm in the best place.
Speaker 1:Okay, I know that we weren't going to go here and I want to be careful with this because I don't want anyone to. I'll start with this. I'm still on antidepressants and can you tell people what happened in the last couple of months? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I've actually kind of gotten off of them. It's been one of those things that I had thought about for quite a while, but I had struggled in the past with more major depression. You know, especially in granted. It's been quite a few years now that I've had like significant, significant issues, so there was a little bit of fear on that, but that's been something that, once I've stopped, I think I even thought in my head of like, oh, this is going to be a little more rough, this is going to be, and when I have some of these issues and just recognizing as I've been going through this, like okay, I feel, I feel great now Do I feel more emotion at sometimes?
Speaker 2:Yes, but I think that's in part like that's kind of that's a good thing. Well, being able to feel more, you know it's like, but I don't feel more sad. If anything, I've recognized working through some of that trauma, being able to heal that. Now, being back to your baseline, or you know what have you Like? I feel better than I did even before when I was on meds, and especially way better than before that, even still. So it's like for my own mental health in some ways. I don't think and I know it seems silly to think like well, that would be, but in my head that wasn't where I thought the benefit was going to come from. I was thinking more specifically like interpersonal yeah, like it didn't even occur to me that, oh wow, like actually I'm going to feel a lot better with myself, with who I am in terms of self esteem, in terms of just like it's really benefited in a lot of ways like that.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing that's just been so utterly surprising around all of this is the idea of either of us coming off of our meds and being able to really like hold ourselves emotionally and work through those things and feel safe doing that without the other one being scared or the other one being like trying to control I that wouldn't have even felt like a possibility in my brain.
Speaker 2:I do want to thank you for that, because that has been something I've not. You know, it's one of those. I feel like I worried way less in general than I feel like I would have, but going through all of this you've been amazing.
Speaker 1:No, like I just make me cry.
Speaker 2:I try to. But seriously though, I'm just seriously, I just really appreciate that because you have let me kind of deal with myself a little bit in this and and but having that knowledge that it's not dysregulating you, yeah, you're not sitting there the whole time thinking, oh no, what's going to happen, is he going to do this Like not having. That has been really helpful, personally even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am. Yeah, this is like the where we are now is beyond my wildest dreams, when you know, 15 years ago and I really do, really do attribute it to this work I really do, okay. And then there was one more thing that you mentioned before this, that I'm like there's a low hanging fruit. All right, I'm not bribing anybody, I'm not encouraging anybody to join for this reason and also it's a good reason, it's. It's maybe my now it's my second favorite part of doing this work with you. But what was the other part that you said?
Speaker 2:No, no, just in terms of like the increase as our relationships got better and we worked through this, the increase in the frequency of having fun times, if you will.
Speaker 1:And just the quality. Yeah, oh for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's so many more ways as we've been closer and not just like not fighting because we're trying not to fight or whatever as we felt that much closer I think and you can tell me, you know your side, but like I felt closer and it's helped me to really connect to you more and it has made everything kind of especially in that realm, like better.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely grossed out a lot more, not because we're that, but the like we'll be kissing in the kitchen they're like would you rather us not?
Speaker 2:like we're, before.
Speaker 1:But I agree with that. I feel like I I feel so much more safe, I feel so much more regulated and I feel safe for telling you what I want. I feel safe for being playful with you and like and experiencing new things with you, because I trust that whatever my however, I feel about it, whatever my response is, is like you're going to value it, and that makes a huge, huge difference. And I wanted to share that because, like I mean, the fun times were never not fun with us and like that was another thing that just really surprised me was just when we're able to really feel our feelings without taking responsibility for each other's feelings and being codependent. It's amazing how much deeper I could go into the experience of just being connected with you and being intimate with you and just even in conversation, like right here, like we're, like we've been not, we've been home all the time, so okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to drop the link for the trips conference below.
Speaker 1:I hope that you all will consider joining us and really I just I want to, even if it's not this, you know, even if it's something else, like just know that there is, there are, there are resources for you out there on this.
Speaker 1:There, there is hope for you around these things and we couldn't have had this conversation two years ago, three years ago, and I fully believe that doing the trauma informed, psychologically safe work is how we got here. So if you have any questions about the trips conference or if you're like I already know I want to be in the nine month certificate, you can send me a DM. I'm happy to answer them for you and see you next time. Bye, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitation to head to their show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned. Or you can just head straight over to Institute for Trauma dot com and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. Invitation to be well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.